Who do I need to believe about the Thunderbolt Option?

D

dougied

New Member
I keep reading between GearSlutz and here about the Thunderbolt Option Card, and that it's not a TRUE thunderbolt connection and just another firewire connection. My Apollo Quad is a great interface, but I am confused. Do I buy a new Mac w/ thunderbolt? My 2008 Mac Pro is getting old, and the new Macs coming out look pretty sweet. I'm starting feel like something strange is afoot.

Thanks.
 
C

chrisso

Venerated Member
What do UAD say? I would believe them.
Especially over someone with an anonymous screen-name over at Gearslutz.
 
F

fjcoloma

Member
Firewire is firewire....Thunderbolt is thunderbolt. Is that simple.

They are not compatible....and you will need adaptors if you want to connect Firewire to Thunderbolt.

So if UA says it's thunderbolt, it's thunderbolt. No confusion here.

About buying a new mac with Thunderbolt....all new macs have it, so whatever mac you buy has thunderbolt.

What you can try prior to installing the Thunderbolt card in your Apollo is trying to work with a FW800 to Thunderbolt adaptor cable. It's always better when you decide to work with the THcard, but also much more expensive of course. Maybe only the cable will do.

Also ask first UA for adaptor cable compatibility. Just in case.

:)
 
Cat5

Cat5

Established Member
fjcoloma said:
Firewire is firewire....Thunderbolt is thunderbolt. Is that simple.

They are not compatible....and you will need adaptors if you want to connect Firewire to Thunderbolt.

So if UA says it's thunderbolt, it's thunderbolt. No confusion here.

About buying a new mac with Thunderbolt....all new macs have it, so whatever mac you buy has thunderbolt.

What you can try prior to installing the Thunderbolt card in your Apollo is trying to work with a FW800 to Thunderbolt adaptor cable. It's always better when you decide to work with the THcard, but also much more expensive of course. Maybe only the cable will do.

Also ask first UA for adaptor cable compatibility. Just in case.

:)
Click to expand...
Not true. The Apollo thunderbolt card contains a FW800 to thunderbolt adapter. The Apollo i/o runs on it. You can even look up the apollo i/o insystem devices on your mac. It resides under the firewire tab. The i/o runs on a firewire bus with or without the card.
 
woodyreed

woodyreed

Established Member
fjcoloma said:
About buying a new mac with Thunderbolt....all new macs have it, so whatever mac you buy has thunderbolt.
Click to expand...
Nope. They do not. A MacPro, believe it or not, does not have Thunderbolt. There is hope that it will in the next upgrade, but no one is sure. The life of the MacPro has been one of debate.
 
Eric Dahlberg

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
Cat5 put it well in the other Thunderbolt thread when he explained that it can provide 30% more instances of low DSP plug-ins. Other than that, I'm gathering from his explanation that there aren't more benefits.
 
C

chrisso

Venerated Member
This is what UAD say on the Apollo product page:
Thunderbolt™: The Next Generation of Connectivity
Apollo offers compatibility with Intel’s new Thunderbolt technology on the newest iMacs, MacBook Pros, MacBook Airs, and Mac minis.
Available via a user-installable dual-port Thunderbolt Option Card (sold separately), Thunderbolt provides greater UAD plug-in instances, improved performance at higher sample rates, and reduced UAD plug-in latency versus Apollo’s standard FireWire connection. And because Thunderbolt offers many times the bandwidth of FireWire, it allows music producers to connect numerous devices in series with the Apollo interface — including hard drives, processors, and additional computer monitors — all with fast, flawless performance.
Click to expand...
I guess in hindsight 'compatibility' with Thunderbolt is vague, compared to 'native thunderbolt' (or however you would word it).
If it turned out Apollo was really a FW interface with an internal fw to tb feature i think i would feel cheated. My number one aim when purchasing Apollo was to free up my FW buss - which is a limited buss on my model iMac.

Also, as you can see in the above quote, UAD claim far more benefits than just 30% more plug-in instances.
 
reflekshun

reflekshun

Active Member
Eric Dahlberg said:
Cat5 put it well in the other Thunderbolt thread when he explained that it can provide 30% more instances of low DSP plug-ins. Other than that, I'm gathering from his explanation that there aren't more benefits.
Click to expand...
One more benefit is the ability to run UAD plugins reliably at lower buffer settings than 512 samples. If running apollo through a firewire connection, using UAD plugins at less than 512 samples can be unstable in my experience, and it is not recommended by UAD.
 
Matt Hepworth

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
I don't recall exactly where the response was, but UA stated in no uncertain terms that their TB interface card is TRUE TB, when asked this very question (just prior to release). If that's the case, it sounds like they're bridging with it right now and have not done the firmware update to unlock its full potential. If that IS the case, it was to get it released "on time".

I don't have any further info, unfortunately.

Have they delivered on their promises? No.

Is Apollo still an excellent interface? Yes.

Is Apollo successful? Yes.

Can it be improved through simple updates? Yes
 
Cat5

Cat5

Established Member
reflekshun said:
Eric Dahlberg said:
Cat5 put it well in the other Thunderbolt thread when he explained that it can provide 30% more instances of low DSP plug-ins. Other than that, I'm gathering from his explanation that there aren't more benefits.
Click to expand...
One more benefit is the ability to run UAD plugins reliably at lower buffer settings than 512 samples. If running apollo through a firewire connection, using UAD plugins at less than 512 samples can be unstable in my experience, and it is not recommended by UAD.
Click to expand...
I am able to run reliably at 128 up to a point, and then certainly 256 over firewire. Through thunderbolt this is unchanged. The 512 sample latency that gets reduced to 64 samples is for the plugins themselves (independent of i/o latency) and is only valid if the Apollo is the sole UAD2 device connected.

Believe me. Nothing is vague or up in the air about this. It is confirmed by UA. Apollo is a firewire interface. No matter how you run it that fact remains.
 
V

veggieryan

Active Member
It would be great if someone at UAD could tell us if this problem can ever be addressed in a future firmware update... like they just left it as a firewire interface for now since it takes more time to write the true thunderbolt/pcie audio drivers.... but I suspect they will never post in their own forum (lame) and they will not be able to fix this via firmware.... which means I will be ebaying this bad boy as soon as the apollo 2 comes out... true thunderbolt, 16 core dsp, better conversion, more analog and digital i/o instead of built in mic pres.... bring it on.
 
F

fjcoloma

Member
woodyreed said:
fjcoloma said:
About buying a new mac with Thunderbolt....all new macs have it, so whatever mac you buy has thunderbolt.
Click to expand...
Nope. They do not. A MacPro, believe it or not, does not have Thunderbolt. There is hope that it will in the next upgrade, but no one is sure. The life of the MacPro has been one of debate.
Click to expand...
Yes, of course...i mean the new iMac line, the mini and the MacBooks...The Macpros of course not until the next models expected in 2013...
 
F

fjcoloma

Member
Cat5 said:
fjcoloma said:
Firewire is firewire....Thunderbolt is thunderbolt. Is that simple.

They are not compatible....and you will need adaptors if you want to connect Firewire to Thunderbolt.

So if UA says it's thunderbolt, it's thunderbolt. No confusion here.

About buying a new mac with Thunderbolt....all new macs have it, so whatever mac you buy has thunderbolt.

What you can try prior to installing the Thunderbolt card in your Apollo is trying to work with a FW800 to Thunderbolt adaptor cable. It's always better when you decide to work with the THcard, but also much more expensive of course. Maybe only the cable will do.

Also ask first UA for adaptor cable compatibility. Just in case.

:)
Click to expand...
Not true. The Apollo thunderbolt card contains a FW800 to thunderbolt adapter. The Apollo i/o runs on it. You can even look up the apollo i/o insystem devices on your mac. It resides under the firewire tab. The i/o runs on a firewire bus with or without the card.
Click to expand...
If that is true, what_the_fuck do i need a Thunderbolt card for?????

Come on UA....nothing to say??? Good or bad, but say something....
 
T

tlockett

Active Member
I bought the card installed it, and see no performance benefit .
I hear of people getting 30% more DSP usage, but I don't even see that.
My system is a MBP 2011, 16gig ram, 7200 hybrid drive Mac OS 10.7.5,I also use a sonnet tempo sata pro express card34 for my hard drives. I now have a free FireWire 800 port to use as I need.
Now my system with the same plug ins in console show the same DSP usage with thunderbolt , as they did with firewire 800
I never used a firewire 800 port for my HD's so I had very good performance, before I bought the option card.I guess what I'm trying to say is
if your not having any issues using your apollo over the firewire 800 port, don't get the option card.
I did buy a OWC hellos thunderbolt chassis for my Avid HD native card that I use with 192 I/O, and sync I/O, and it's a true PCIe on thunderbolt
I still love my Apollo, it sounds way better than my 192 I/O, and I like the UAD plug ins, but I'm very disappointed with the "thunderbolt" option card.

Tommy
 
sdfalk

sdfalk

Member
tlockett said:
I bought the card installed it, and see no performance benefit .
I hear of people getting 30% more DSP usage, but I don't even see that.
My system is a MBP 2011, 16gig ram, 7200 hybrid drive Mac OS 10.7.5,I also use a sonnet tempo sata pro express card34 for my hard drives. I now have a free FireWire 800 port to use as I need.
Now my system with the same plug ins in console show the same DSP usage with thunderbolt , as they did with firewire 800
I never used a firewire 800 port for my HD's so I had very good performance, before I bought the option card.I guess what I'm trying to say is
if your not having any issues using your apollo over the firewire 800 port, don't get the option card.
I did buy a OWC hellos thunderbolt chassis for my Avid HD native card that I use with 192 I/O, and sync I/O, and it's a true PCIe on thunderbolt
I still love my Apollo, it sounds way better than my 192 I/O, and I like the UAD plug ins, but I'm very disappointed with the "thunderbolt" option card.

Tommy
Click to expand...

Before I installed the thunderbolt card on my duo, I hit the wall on plugin usage.
After, it freed up enough bandwidth to allow for 5 additional plugins.
I've also been able to run more reliably at lower latencies.
Until I hear DIRECTLY from UA (you know, the actual developer of the hardware) what the card
actually does, I'll be perfectly happy with the actual results.
 
D

DiScO197

Member
All very interesting.

I'm about to shell out £400 for this card but I'm a bit concerned having read all this. Any way we can get a definitive answer on wether or not its true TB unlockable via a firmware update?

I'm on a MacBook Pro 2011 also with 16GB of ram so if there is no performance increase I really can't see the benefit.

Cheers.
 
sdfalk

sdfalk

Member
DiScO197 said:
All very interesting.

I'm about to shell out £400 for this card but I'm a bit concerned having read all this. Any way we can get a definitive answer on wether or not its true TB unlockable via a firmware update?

I'm on a MacBook Pro 2011 also with 16GB of ram so if there is no performance increase I really can't see the benefit.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Well..

For what's it worth, I've put in an email with UA already.
I'll certainly be interested to hear back from them.
If they reply, I'll post it here
 
D

DiScO197

Member
I'll watch this space then! Cheers.
 
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