Studer A800

andyjh · May 21, 2014

I'm trying to convince myself that I need to buy the Studer A800, though I've not persuaded myself yet.

Each time I get a good result, I realise that it is the EQ settings doing it, rather than any uniqueness of the Studer A800.

The metering's a bit unhelpful, as it's on the output, which is a shame as the input level is so important, and pushing the input to +3 to +6 is effective, but then doesn't show anything useful other than bending the meter needle.

It would have also been good to have the input and output levels inversely linkable, especially as UA don't show the values or allow direct input.

But the one thing I do wonder, is why there is no wow & flutter simulation. As a "perfect" emulation of a tape machine, why is this not modelled?

The (real) Studer A800 spec shows wow & flutter to be 0.04% (at 7.5ips), I would have thought this was significant enough to be relevant.

If there is a reasonable offer in the summer sale on the Studer, I probably will get it anyway, but I'm certainly unsure at the moment.
(I don't have the Ampex yet either, but I have already decided to get that one)

I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on the Studer A800.

The19thbear · May 21, 2014

I tested it a little bit and was pretty "meeeh". The ampex on the other hand puts a big smile on my face! You can adjust wow and flutter and tape speed etc. you can make it sound like a really old work out casette deck or use it to squeeze a complete track or to ad smack on the drumbus. It's pretty amazing!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Beechwood · May 21, 2014

It's all about the transients for me with the Studer.

You could view it as just a weird EQ and a distortion effect stuck together, and maybe that's all recording to tape really is, but it sounds good. You can use it to grunge anything up, and that's cool, but it's on drums and other very percussive things that I find it most useful. It cuts off some of the transient spike, which leaves you with a lot more body to your sound. Because the transients are less spiky, it's easier to fit things together, and I find I need less compression and things sound more natural.

The metering is input metering. Re linking the levels, yep it would defo be handy. You can mostly do it by eye though. If you have your input at 2 o'clock, the output probably needs to be at about 10, or slightly below.

DrewMazurek · May 21, 2014

yup, tape has always been subtle.

fataudiotech · May 21, 2014

I like how you start a thread feigning interest but use it as a guise to criticise and attempt to discredit the plugin, while attempting to show everyone how clever you are and how you can do it better. Of course I could be wrong and am being overly sensitive. If this is the case and this is not your intent than please accept my apology. I doubt you would walk into a Studio with an A800 and ask the owner "you don't mind if I adjust the Wow and Flutter on your machine, it sounds like its at 0.03% not 0.04%?" As has been pointed out the Ampex has more intricate adjustments and can be used to simulate tape based effects. With careful manipulation it will even do a reasonable interpretation of the very elusive ADT effect.

LFranco · May 21, 2014

andyjh said:
The (real) Studer A800 spec shows wow & flutter to be 0.04% (at 7.5ips), I would have thought this was significant enough to be relevant.

No, that is VERY minor (and inaudible). Relevant (from what I know) would be > 0.8%

Suggested reading to better understand the UAD A800 (no offense, but it looks like you don't fully understand how it works):

Tips & Tricks ? Studer A800 Mutichannel Tape Recorder Plug-In - Blog - Universal Audio

tsutek · May 21, 2014

I have both and like both, for different reasons. The A800 is a lot easier to use IMO. It does something quite nice when you multitrack through it. I admit the ATR has more wow-factor, but is a bitch to "master". There's lot more ways to screw up a mix with the ATR, guess my tape-op-fu is still too weak?

Initially I liked the A800 a lot. Then the ATR was released and found myself wishing that I'd never bought the A800. Fast forward to today and I'm liking the A800 more than the ATR. It's a sleeper IMO.

Emmett_Brown · May 21, 2014

tsutek said:
I have both and like both, for different reasons. The A800 is a lot easier to use IMO. It does something quite nice when you multitrack through it. I admit the ATR has more wow-factor, but is a bitch to "master". There's lot more ways to screw up a mix with the ATR, guess my tape-op-fu is still too weak?

Initially I liked the A800 a lot. Then the ATR was released and found myself wishing that I'd never bought the A800. Fast forward to today and I'm liking the A800 more than the ATR. It's a sleeper IMO.

This is the very reason that I have too many plugins... I end up liking them one day, and liking something else the next. I guess its also the beauty of having so many choices. Some days, I like VTM, some days I like Studer. I tend to like studer on bass, and I like overdriving the plug a bit. I also like how it tames cymbals. Some days, VTM works better for what I am doing. If I could do it again, I would probably still buy the Studer, because it saturates in a pleasant way. Ampex on the other hand... I almost always like it! I like the Ampex non-linear presets (mostly the 30ips ones) on my 2 bus. If its too much, I will sometimes run it in parallel (Reaper allows me to do this)

andyjh · May 21, 2014

tsutek said:
I have both and like both, for different reasons. The A800 is a lot easier to use IMO. It does something quite nice when you multitrack through it. I admit the ATR has more wow-factor, but is a bitch to "master". There's lot more ways to screw up a mix with the ATR, guess my tape-op-fu is still too weak?

Initially I liked the A800 a lot. Then the ATR was released and found myself wishing that I'd never bought the A800. Fast forward to today and I'm liking the A800 more than the ATR. It's a sleeper IMO.

This is the statement that has cropped up many times on the forum, which is why I am cautious about the Studer plug in, and 14 days (demo time) may not be really long enough to appraise things.

So it is interesting, to hear that in this case, the A800 wasn't a five minute wonder, and does have some lasting appeal.

Kcatthedog · May 21, 2014

i think the studer and ampex are very different and its a little easier to go wow with the ampex but the studer is certainly a player and i think quieter and is interesting to use on the 2 bus instead of the ampex sometimes .

andyjh · May 21, 2014

fataudiotech said:
I like how you start a thread feigning interest but use it as a guise to criticise and attempt to discredit the plugin, while attempting to show everyone how clever you are and how you can do it better. Of course I could be wrong and am being overly sensitive. If this is the case and this is not your intent than please accept my apology. I doubt you would walk into a Studio with an A800 and ask the owner "you don't mind if I adjust the Wow and Flutter on your machine, it sounds like its at 0.03% not 0.04%?" As has been pointed out the Ampex has more intricate adjustments and can be used to simulate tape based effects. With careful manipulation it will even do a reasonable interpretation of the very elusive ADT effect.

No, you are wrong, on many counts.

I have just bought an Octo card, so I have a $750 coupon to spend, plus a Custom trio bundle. The Studer A800 is high on the possible wants list, but at $349 - it's one to be sure of before buying.

I questioned the wow and flutter, because it's simply not there. UA decided not to model it, but they do model the noise which is 96dB down, so that is very low and could be considered "not noticeable".

Maybe because I am an electronics engineer, I don't see anything "clever" in stating simple measurements, I would expect any sound engineer to talk in terms of dB's and percentages. I didn't say anything about recognizing a wow & flutter measurement by ear, I simply asked the question is 0.04% too low for UA to bother with. With the detail that UA go into, I am surprised that the answer to that is - yes it is.

I stated a few things which I didn't like about the plug in, is it part of the forum rules that we cannot say anything negative about a plug in, without getting flamed?

I was just trying to get a discussion going about the Studer plug in, I may have been an electronics engineer and studio owner for many decades, but I still always listen to other people.

I have a notice at the entrance to my studio "Those people who think they know everything, are annoying to those of us that do" - oddly enough, this does make people think a little more before they speak.

Forums are for discussion, and this was an attempt at a discussion on the Studer A800, yet it seems some just don't want to hear anything that could get in the way of the sun shining out of ..... (well you know what I mean)

I want to know the good things and the bad things about this plug in, and hopefully someone will mention something that will tip the balance on my indecisiveness to buy or not buy this one.

andyjh · May 21, 2014

LFranco said:
No, that is VERY minor (and inaudible). Relevant (from what I know) would be > 0.8%

Suggested reading to better understand the UAD A800 (no offense, but it looks like you don't fully understand how it works):

Tips & Tricks ? Studer A800 Mutichannel Tape Recorder Plug-In - Blog - Universal Audio

Well yes, 0.8% would be relevant, most cassette players are better than that. Though maybe you meant 0.08%

I have no idea why you seem to think I don't know how the plug in works, but as you haven't offered any words of wisdom about the plug in, I assume you don't either (no offense).

What I don't have is experience using it, because I only have a limited time demo.

Can we please have a discussion about the plug in, instead of all this, "I know more than you" attitude.

thanks

Kcatthedog · May 21, 2014

I had the studer for 2 years and hardly used it but was using the ampex all the time. then i read a post here about the studer being quieter so i went back and experimented with it and then it clicked

I would still recommend the ampex first, but the studer does nicely sublime things on different sources, but it doesn't hit you over the head i feel like you are kind of looking for the wow factor and i am not certain if that is fair to the studer

you have two purchase decisions to make when you do one it will reset your plugs so you could have another 14 demo maybe decide on three plugs you want for sure and leave the studer for later and also maybe wait for the next sale ?

fataudiotech · May 21, 2014

andyjh said:
No, you are wrong, on many counts.

I have just bought an Octo card, so I have a $750 coupon to spend, plus a Custom trio bundle. The Studer A800 is high on the possible wants list, but at $349 - it's one to be sure of before buying.

I questioned the wow and flutter, because it's simply not there. UA decided not to model it, but they do model the noise which is 96dB down, so that is very low and could be considered "not noticeable".

Maybe because I am an electronics engineer, I don't see anything "clever" in stating simple measurements, I would expect any sound engineer to talk in terms of dB's and percentages. I didn't say anything about recognizing a wow & flutter measurement by ear, I simply asked the question is 0.04% too low for UA to bother with. With the detail that UA go into, I am surprised that the answer to that is - yes it is.

I stated a few things which I didn't like about the plug in, is it part of the forum rules that we cannot say anything negative about a plug in, without getting flamed?

I was just trying to get a discussion going about the Studer plug in, I may have been an electronics engineer and studio owner for many decades, but I still always listen to other people.

I have a notice at the entrance to my studio "Those people who think they know everything, are annoying to those of us that do" - oddly enough, this does make people think a little more before they speak.

Forums are for discussion, and this was an attempt at a discussion on the Studer A800, yet it seems some just don't want to hear anything that could get in the way of the sun shining out of ..... (well you know what I mean)

I want to know the good things and the bad things about this plug in, and hopefully someone will mention something that will tip the balance on my indecisiveness to buy or not buy this one.

As I said in my earlier post, if I misread your intent I apologise. But I can't help but notice a reoccurring theme in most of your posts. It usually involves poo pooing whatever UA does whether it be their modelling techniques or their electronic engineering practices. It is then followed by someone questioning your claims and you not backing up your opinions, which you often state as facts. I hardly think you are any kind of victim here. But that is just my opinion. I think the sign above your studio is actually a pretty good reflection of your attitude. For you to suggest that anyone on here is displaying a "I know more than you" attitude is quite hypocritical coming from you. But again that is just my opinion. And you are more than welcome to share yours. However if you continue to offer them in a "I know more than you" manner and continue to profess to know more about modelling than UA than I will probably continue to dispute your claims if I disagree with them. It is a forum after all.

LFranco · May 21, 2014

andyjh said:
I have no idea why you seem to think I don't know how the plug in works, but as you haven't offered any words of wisdom about the plug in, I assume you don't either (no offense).

Well, your lack of knowledge of how the input/output works with the VU meter was a start. LOL, excuse me - and sorry for trying to help! I'm sure you know perfectly how it works and I'm just an offending tool that assumes too much (a few of the things I was going to say are outlined in that UA tips & tricks doc, so why type them out if they already did). Again, my apologies for trying to be helpful. I will remember not to offer you any attempts of it in the future.

fataudiotech · May 21, 2014

Almost as entertaining as when he suggested Thunderbolt didn't have enough bandwidth for a pair of Octo cards. That being said I am willing to lay off if he learns a bit of humility. But something tells me he really believes his own hype and his arrogance is too far gone.

n1kk666 · May 21, 2014

I have both and don't regret getting either one. There are no real downsides to either one. The Studer is especially useful if you have an Apollo. It doesn't use too much DSP so you can run it on every channel of a drum mic setup and print on input. The whole point of the Studer is for the cumulative effect. The Ampex is for entire mixes and maybe group buses as well. There are other creative ways you can use them though. I like using the Studer as a distortion box sometimes, and the Ampex can be used as a tape delay. The Studer is not as detailed of an emulation as the Ampex, but that is because it is intended for you to run more instances at once.

grahamsimmonds · May 21, 2014

Chaps - this is getting a bit gearslutz. Reasonable question by the OP. Take it outside.

I really like the Studer A800. Particularly on a drum buss where it brightens (if I want it to), separates and adds clarity to bottom end. The A/B comparison is always pleasing. Putting it on 30 ips and and adjusting the hf carefully can give a real sheen.

One of my favourite UAD plugins.

DanButsu · May 22, 2014

andyjh said:
... snip... Each time I get a good result, I realise that it is the EQ settings doing it, rather than any uniqueness of the Studer A800...

Well, you are correct, in a way, but it's much more complicated/exciting... Tape bias settings, tape type/formula, tape speed, calibration... all amount to some form of colour (eq) and behavior, compression, saturation, distortion...

I really like the Studer and love the Ampex. Having said that, technically the Studer gets more use, instance wise.

I use the Studer on individual tracks to; fatten up kicks, add meat to snares, tame harsh hi-hats and overheads, grunge up drum rooms, give crappy soft synths more mojo and vibe, make basses sound... errm... more bassy... Then it's on each subgroup (drums GP9 15ips, bass 15ips, instruments 30ips, backing vox 15ips, lead vox 30ips...). The Studer is a real beauty, easy to set up, can go from mostly transparent to an effect, dives gain staging in and out of the subgroups while adding glue and coherence to the grouped tracks.

The Studer works best with multiple instances stacked up in a mix (remember it's a 24-track recorder) and may sound "mehh" on it's own on one track or the master (not a mastering deck it is). The Ampex colours more and is more "evident"! I couldn't use that many Ampex's in a mix (DSP wise and sonically); unless you have a couple octo's and/or are going for a heavy tape sounding mix as a choice (just did a Reggae mix and used 12 Ampex's).The Ampex lives on my master in 9/10 mixes (30ips, always with noise off and the transformer on or off depending on the track/genre). The Ampex can be setup for cool fx too like tape delay and slap (anyone say dub) and does beautiful ADT!

I'd say they both work wonderfully together and I could not imagine having only the Ampex!

Just my experience and workflow of course

fataudiotech · May 22, 2014

grahamsimmonds said:
Chaps - this is getting a bit gearslutz. Reasonable question by the OP. Take it outside.

I really like the Studer A800. Particularly on a drum buss where it brightens (if I want it to), separates and adds clarity to bottom end. The A/B comparison is always pleasing. Putting it on 30 ips and and adjusting the hf carefully can give a real sheen.

One of my favourite UAD plugins.

Fair enough. Apologies to all.

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