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Aux send levels for metered FX like Re-201 tape delay!

Matt Marantz

Active Member
Got a question about using FX with input metering on Aux sends with quiet mix tracks.

I generally limit my individual track peaks to -18dbfs when mixing ITB. The first thing I do when I load up a new project is let the whole thing play through and see where the highest peak on each track is. Usually I find that the recording engineers have let the recorded tracks get close to 0dbfs on the way in and so I go through each track with a calculator and find out exactly how many db I need to reduce the gain on each track. For stereo sources such as piano I just reduce the gain the same amount on both tracks using the loudest peak as a guideline. I use a trim/gain plugin to do this.

I have found that gain staging this way (and contuining to gain stage that way no matter how many plugins are inserted on a track) results in much better sounding mixes.

One thing I'm not so sure about is dealing with aux send levels for effects such as reverbs and delays that have input metering on them. Let's say you're using a plugin like the Roland Re-201 from UAD which has input signal metering built in, and sounds different depending on the level of signal sent into it.

Overdriving the input of a tape delay is a common effect and the Re-201 has an input VU meter built in for this purpose and can sound super clean or totally saturated iwth distortion depending on how much signal you send into it.

When my tracks are pulled down to -18dbfs at the peaks, there's only so much aux send signal you can feed it and it's very difficult to get the overdriven tape delay sound like this. Often the VU meter on the tape delay isn't moving at all even though the delay is audibly working.

The obvious way I would try to fix this if I required overdriven tape delay is to insert a trim/gain plugin before the Re-201 and bring the level up to a point where the input is doing what you want it to do to acheive a desired effect (i.e. overdriving/distorting the tape delay.) Then, you can reduce the output on the Re-201 or use another gain/trim plugin after the Re-201 to bring the level down on the effect to fit back into the mix if need be. Or just pull down the track fader...

My question is: Is this the way you would deal with the issue in this situation? Am I doing it wrong? Or is there a better way to do it?

Thanks,
Matt
 

shimel

Venerated Member
Of course you have good reasons to level your tracks at -18dbfs but please , could you explain me why it results a better sounding mix ? Do you talk about the workflow or something else ?

I think there no problem to insert some digital gain staging everywhere you like without losing any quality : it’s only numerical operation
The only limit to not overpass in the digital domain is digital clipping. And when I don’t trust my daw’s meters , I’m using of (free) plug : Bitter ( Bitter - Stillwell Audio Stillwell Audio )
 

marQs

Shareholder
Of course you have good reasons to level your tracks at -18dbfs but please , could you explain me why it results a better sounding mix ? Do you talk about the workflow or something else ?

I think there no problem to insert some digital gain staging everywhere you like without losing any quality : it’s only numerical operation
The only limit to not overpass in the digital domain is digital clipping. And when I don’t trust my daw’s meters , I’m using of (free) plug : Bitter ( Bitter - Stillwell Audio Stillwell Audio )
It's not a secret that plugins have an operation level set just like hardware. Might not matter for that superclean EQ, but it does for plugins that emulate analog circuitry. Many UAD plugins do.

Having smooth levels on the way in means, those plugs will work in their sweet spot.

Having hot levels in equals lots of heavy driven devices = tendency to a mushy mix.
 

shimel

Venerated Member
I'm not sure I have understand you Mark : Do you mean we meet the sweet spot of UAD plugs ( as StuderA800 for instance ) when the signal doesn't go over -18dbfs ?
I did not experiment good results with a so low track max input level.
It depends too if the track is already leveled ( optimized ) with a compressor
From my point of view, keep the level of tracks down is just a way to have a sum buss level under well under 0.
Most of the time I try to keep my Sum level around -9 dB ( after track treatment including compression )
Am I wrong all the line ?
 

redlogic1

Active Member
Got a question about using FX with input metering on Aux sends with quiet mix tracks.

I generally limit my individual track peaks to -18dbfs when mixing ITB...
There's a 210 page Thread with 6273 posts (to date!) at GS concerning the wisdom of lower levels.
The Wisdom speaks of -18 to -20dBfs average levels with peaks of -10 to -6 dBfs.
Check out post #89 by Bob Olhsson (of Motown fame).
It's stated elsewhere in the thread by Paul Frindle and other heavy hitters.
It's a great read if you've got A YEAR TO SPARE. :eek:


...When my tracks are pulled down to -18dbfs at the peaks, there's only so much aux send signal you can feed it and it's very difficult to get the overdriven tape delay sound like this. Often the VU meter on the tape delay isn't moving at all even though the delay is audibly working.
That's because -18dBfs PEAK is just too low of a level


My question is: Is this the way you would deal with the issue in this situation? Am I doing it wrong? Or is there a better way to do it?

Thanks,
Matt
VU meters are average meters
Since DAW meters are peak meters, peak at -6 to -10dBfs.
This will give you average levels of -18dBfs.
You'll gain all the benefits of working with lower levels and still have enough gas to use the sends properly.
 
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shimel

Venerated Member
VU meters are average meters
Since DAW meters are peak meters, peak at -6 to -10dBfs.
This will give you average levels of -18dBfs.
You'll gain all the benefits of working with lower levels and still have enough gas to use the sends properly.
that's exactly the way I'm working :)
 

marQs

Shareholder
So do I :cool:

Using VCC for some years now, usually in the first insert. Peaky signals get a little compressed sometimes before VCC. I use it's VU meter and the gain staging is pretty perfect for most subsequent plugins.
 

Matt Marantz

Active Member
Guys - In reference to the post by reddoglogic1: This is what I've learned after posting this same qutestion at different places across the web. Great info shared on the subject. This is what I didn't undersand: The -18dbfs refence point is for average levels, not peak levels, which is what I thought they were talking about... What I learned is that one of the best ways to insure you're hitting your analog emulation plugins at the right level is to get a 3rd party VU meter plugin and set the plugin to -18rms and then make the hottest peaks of the track hover around 0VU on the meter. Usually, this ends up making the track peak level read about -9dbfs to -10dbfs in the DAW's track level meter. Very, very helpful and this all makes much more sense to me now. Thanks fellas!
 

1176

Active Member
Well for many of the plugins, there's an input gain that allows circuit overload. Just start bringing up the Input Gain on the Space Echo, and you'll find what you're looking for. It's great you're striving for best practice gain staging, but it's ok to hit your effects hard within the chain when necessary
 

redlogic1

Active Member
Operating Levels

Here's some stuff about UAD plug-in Operating Levels.

From Page 81 of the UAD System Manual:


Operating Levels
Except as noted in Table 3 below, the internal operating level of most UAD Powered Plug-Ins is typically –18 dBFS. 0 dBFS is calibrated to +4 dBu with 18 dB of headroom, so 0 dBFS is the equivalent of +22 dBu in the analog domain.

Table 3.png
 

Matt Marantz

Active Member
Cheers, good info there, thanks for that chart! Will save that.
 
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