Console 2 not phase locked?

I'm currently running console 2. (contacted support but want to see if anyone else has the same problem or any ideas)

When I turn up sends from any line input to Aux 1 or Aux 2 I get the same problem: phasing. Auxes and Line ins are not phase locked. I don't believe I had this problem before console 2.

The strangest part is that this happens with or without plugins! I am not using any DAW software when this problem occurs.

I have tried the following:

- Changing delay compensation (off / short / med / long)
- Using insert plugins / send plugins, using no insert plugins / send plugins
- Changing Sample Rate
- Monitoring through headphones / Monitors / Alt Outputs
- Taking signal through line 1 through 8 and passing it through sends.
- Passing mono and stereo signal through sends.

All of these efforts give me what sounds like the same amount of phasing.

The Delay compensation option does not seem to alter the phasing distance even from off to long.

I still have phasing issues without any DAW running, without any plugins running and just passing audio from line in to an aux.

Any ideas folks? Would love to hear them

There's a 32-sample delay between the input channels and the auxes! Here's Gannon from UA's answer:

[Dan]Is there still a 32-sample delay between the channels and Auxes in console 2.0?
[GK] Yes, still a delay. It's because we make an additional hop out of the mixer to create the summing.

Click to expand...

Thanks Dan! But if there is a 32-sample delay, there should be delay compensation applied to the line in channels correct?

Otherwise wouldn't most users agree this is an unacceptable choice? it means the auxes cannot be used for chorus, reverb with Early reflections, phaser / flanger, parallel compression, distortion / drive.. probably 90% of aux applications haha. Is there a solution they are working on? or a way to have delay compensation options address this?

Many thanks!

From what I gathered from Gannon's reply is that the inputs are not compensated due to the auxes causing a delay. I blue pill it and consider it built in pre-delay

Looking at UA's concept around the console, it's to be used mainly as a recording console front end. So inputs, headphone mixes and auxes for reverb and delay mainly for a tracking session! Then it makes sense. The console falls apart when we try to treat it as a DAW!

have you tried sending your sub mix to a virtual channel for ganged fx other than reverb/delay and then sending its output to your main outs or do the vi's have the same sample delay ?

I use console for tracking sessions, I think everyone does. And I get that verb / delay is mostly usable (Early reflections are negatively affected by this), but if that is all you can use for tracking, that is very limiting considering the more creative possibilities you have at your fingertips, and had before console 2 arrived.

Also, delay compensation usually exists to solve this issue. Is there a reason why it isn't configured to line up aux sends? It just seems weird to me.

Is there a reason they decided to sacrifice phase locked aux channels in the update to console 2? You'd hope it's for something substantial!

This is basically saying that all chorus / phase / distortion / drive / parallel processing of any kind is not usable while tracking. Am I crazy to think this is an issue?

I really hope UAD are working on a solution to this, cos I really do love everything else about console 2, I think they did a great job with everything else.

I'd be more interested in knowing if the delay is compensated when recording the Auxes in the DAW! If you have to manually move them it would kind of suck!

reflekshun said:

I use console for tracking sessions, I think everyone does. And I get that verb / delay is mostly usable (Early reflections are negatively affected by this), but if that is all you can use for tracking, that is very limiting considering the more creative possibilities you have at your fingertips, and had before console 2 arrived.

Also, delay compensation usually exists to solve this issue. Is there a reason why it isn't configured to line up aux sends? It just seems weird to me.

Is there a reason they decided to sacrifice phase locked aux channels in the update to console 2? You'd hope it's for something substantial!

This is basically saying that all chorus / phase / distortion / drive / parallel processing of any kind is not usable while tracking. Am I crazy to think this is an issue?

I really hope UAD are working on a solution to this, cos I really do love everything else about console 2, I think they did a great job with everything else.

Click to expand...

Hoenerbr: that is more DAW specific. Depends on how your DAW handles compensation and auxes. I've used pro tools and logic X, and for the most part, the auxes do line up.

In the daw the aux signal will arrive 32-sample late compared to the input channel as the delay originates in the console pre daw. It was the same with console 1. It was something I hoped they addressed in console 2, but alas no. Gannon said it's required as they hop out and back into the console. Not sure why they've set it up this way, they must have good reason. You can still do all kinds of wild creative things while tracking, you just have to take the delay factor into account (and line it up in the daw once recorded).

Next time you track, set up two daw tracks, one receiving the direct input and the other the copy sent through an aux. Do a palm mute on a gtr or a cable buzz and see how they line up!

i can confirm this, i just made a test and plugged a guitar into line input 1, routed a copy via console to aux 2 channel, left side, and recorded both in cubase.
the aux signal is 37samples late
just need to nudge the recorded track over by -37samples and its fine to go.


and i´m on pc, console 1, firewire

Thanks for the info on this fellas. We should not have to deal with this, though.

Dguidry said:

Thanks for the info on this fellas. We should not have to deal with this, though.

Click to expand...

Huh?

32 samples is 32/44100 of a second. That's .0007256 of 1 second, which is 7 ten-thousandths of 1 second. Humans can't hear that difference.

I don't know what you are hearing that is giving you an audible phase difference. If you can hear a phase difference, you have a lot more than a 32 sample shift. I do know that listening to the guitar in an Apollo, and at the same time listening to the input of the DAW gives a shift one can hear. But you said you hear it without using a DAW.

When you do the loop test, how many samples do you see (not hear)?

:- Don

I hear what you are saying Don (pun intended lol) but I too hear the phase shift. I know it's just under a millisecond, but I hear it too. I have my OS sounds come in to the virtual channels, then from there using an aux I send it out to my board and back into the UA console. And there's a very evident "flam" when the signals are mixed back together. It's not subtle!

i wasnt even aware of this yet, thanks to this forum and the OP
i mostly have used AUX for Reverb/Delay and set to 100% wet.. but its good to know, as once i might running some parallel compression settings on an aux bus and now i now that i need to nudge the track a bit forwards in the daw

Don: Yeah its small but that's all you need for a phase shift to be heard.

Dan: I have been using Console creatively, and I love it. Still, in the real world it disables parallel compression/processing during recording.

The reason is this: it is very off putting when you're hearing phased signal! The idea of tracking with parallel processing is MONITORING something that sounds enhanced during tracking, not weakened, resonant and thin. So in practice it becomes unusable. There is no point doing it in console apart from a minor time saver, but alas, that time saver is negated by the fact you have to nudge it *roughly* 32 samples (37 samples in the example given on this thread) to get it in phase..

One more thing, parallel processing is possible on scope, another DSP platform without any phase locking. I understand they have introduced a delay with the aux channels, but there is a way to include delay compensation for this processing. Scope is proof of that. I really do hope this is addressed, as this kind of feature is the sort of thing that opens up doors to things that other non DSP interfaces cannot do

I love UAD, this is just something that seems severely overlooked, probably because it is new and most people aren't yet making the most of the system during tracking. I support them fully and hope they address things like this in the near future to keep the product solid and reliable, before adding more features! Sending lots of positive and supportive vibes to them now! haha

Thanks everyone for your input.

Can someone express a scenario where one would utilise aux during the tracking stage, in console, to print? I would typically only use those for monitoring purposes of reverb/delay for an artist (headphone mix). If I were to wish to print an effect or parallel compress I would mult the track in the DAW via send to an aux and that to an audio track. The resultant audio would be automatically aligned after record pass with Pro Tools ADC for example... I concur however that 32 samples is substantial (not negligible) even for monitoring, so in practice I would utilise DAW for any additional effect printing at the tracking stage.

Best,

Ashley Smith said:

Can someone express a scenario where one would utilise aux during the tracking stage, in console, to print? I would typically only use those for monitoring purposes of reverb/delay for an artist (headphone mix). If I were to wish to print an effect or parallel compress I would mult the track in the DAW via send to an aux and that to an audio track. The resultant audio would be automatically aligned after record pass with Pro Tools ADC for example... I concur however that 32 samples is substantial (not negligible) even for monitoring, so in practice I would utilise DAW for any additional effect printing at the tracking stage.

Best,

Click to expand...

Yes, when recording a channel wet and dry at the same time on 2 different tracks. I am using Reaper. I just checked, nudge is really easy.

:- Don

Don Schenk said:

Yes, when recording a channel wet and dry at the same time on 2 different tracks. I am using Reaper. I just checked, nudge is really easy.

:- Don

Click to expand...

Exactly the response I was hoping... Yes, when recording wet and dry you can simply utilise the DAW and UA plug-in. Track through an aux, send out via two buses to two audio tracks (one with UA plug-in instantiate, the other not), have ADC turned on in your DAW and everything will be aligned after recorded take. I don't know what the hit on CPU is when using Console, but it's an additional application one can take out of the equation for this scenario.



To edit this post further, I'm not trying to distract from there a possible inherent delay in the Console app itself but more offer a solution. And to this, if you are using Pro Tools for monitoring, please ensure you right click one of the receiving audio tracks' delay compensation area (below the channel fader) in the mixer and turn "Auto Low Latency" off. I read quite a lot of people miss this when monitoring (with Input Monitoring) and using ADC in Pro Tools...

I can summarize why it is a problem, it doesn't allow for monitoring auxes, except for delay / reverbs. I had a basic interface that allowed me to add reverb to it by turning a knob. However in console we have 2 aux channels. With the possibility to use any of their plugins on them, except that you can't with this problem, unless they are reverb or delay.

Tracking Scenarios that are problematic:

Parallel distortion on electric piano / synth (Raw plugin)
Chorus effect on piano / synth / EP / vocals (AMS RMX) (Chorus is thrown way out when there is a tiny delay, as chorus itself is built on tiny delays)
Dimension D on anything to widen it during tracking for that massive effect.

Less important but would do if possible for enhanced sound while monitoring:
Parallel Compression on drums / drum machine / keyboards

I realize that I can (and do and will) track without these effects. But isn't the point of Console to enhance the tracking process by giving us the ability to use realtime effects chains on our tracked material?

I see the blue pill view, and I am using it because I have to. But we should always strive to push past the status quo, and I really don't think that I'm asking much from $3000 piece of gear that has realtime tracking to be phase locked with aux channels. I hope that at least someone here agrees with this lol.

Either way I'm making music, but I feel that someone has to speak up.

Ashley Smith said:

Exactly the response I was hoping... Yes, when recording wet and dry you can simply utilise the DAW and UA plug-in. Track through an aux, send out via two buses to two audio tracks (one with UA plug-in instantiate, the other not), have ADC turned on in your DAW and everything will be aligned after recorded take. I don't know what the hit on CPU is when using Console, but it's an additional application one can take out of the equation for this scenario.



To edit this post further, I'm not trying to distract from there a possible inherent delay in the Console app itself but more offer a solution. And to this, if you are using Pro Tools for monitoring, please ensure you right click one of the receiving audio tracks' delay compensation area (below the channel fader) in the mixer and turn "Auto Low Latency" off. I read quite a lot of people miss this when monitoring (with Input Monitoring) and using ADC in Pro Tools...

Click to expand...

Interesting workaround quite brilliant. But for this to work you'd need to manually delay the aux input track in Pro Tools that is receiving the mic/line channel from the console by ~32-samples. Then when you route both incoming aux channels to audio tracks, they will line up. This will delay the original signal more and possibly mess up an artist's groove.

I'd rather nudge the late console aux channel back once tracked!