Confusion with plugin load in Console

M

mpedrummer

Member
What we're troubleshooting here is probably my understanding of how things work. I ran into something that surprised me, though.

I was messing around with the demos for the Marshall and the BX20 last night. I tried to load them both directly as inserts on channel 1 of my 8p QUAD, and it told me that one or more plugins had to be disabled due to load!

Looking at the instance chart (UAD Instance Chart) it shows that a Quad should be able to run 8 Marshalls, or 8 BX20s, which seems like 1 of each should definitely work out.

Even considering that the Console software may limit things based on a single SHARC chip per channel, or something, it still doesn't add up - the Marshall takes 47% of a chip, the BX20 takes ~34%, which leaves 19% of even a single chip left.

Oddly, I was able to load the BX20 up on an aux, instead of on the channel's inserts.

So, why's this happening? Can anyone else reproduce this?
 
M

mpedrummer

Member
Sorry, just for clarity - that image shows things working for you exactly as I expected it should have worked for me, yes? I don't remember what the "red" background means.
 
Kcatthedog

Kcatthedog

Hall of Fame Member
I have a new 8 and you have the 8p so doesn't each channel only have 1/2 of a sharc chip but my 1-4 have a dedicated sharc ship each ?

but its not loading here properly either and I get a memory and error 38 message.

they had patch for apollo 16 maybe there is a bug with 8 ?
 

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M

mpedrummer

Member
Is that actually how it works? I was under the impression that it could spread the load across the whole Quad, I was just reaching when I suggested the SHARC limit, and then that didn't add up anyway.

I'm going to log a ticket with UA.

Thanks for investigating.
 
S

sjgam

Venerated Member
mpedrummer said:
Is that actually how it works? I was under the impression that it could spread the load across the whole Quad, I was just reaching when I suggested the SHARC limit, and then that didn't add up anyway.

I'm going to log a ticket with UA.

Thanks for investigating.
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I have the little ol Apollo Twin Duo and you cant spread both dsp's on one input. Its usually guitar thats the problem because I want distortion bundle in unison, an amp sim and some reverb and some delay and then icing on cake if I can take an effect like chorus, flanger etc. Pretty normal stuff for a guitar and I like to hear it as it effects my performance during tracking and like the no latency thing when tracking with Apollo. So ... its always using those aux's in clever ways to share the load. Mostly verbs, delays and/or mod effects and try to squeeze amp sim and unison on input track. It becomes like a funky puzzle game as you mix and match and declare your must have's while tracking and thinking what can be easy to add during mix. And yes Console takes some of the dsp up too in your calculations.


I have the TB Sat Octo for mixing and as you know you can put all your dsp across tracks while mixing so thats 10 for me with Octo and Twin.

Half to say - not to rain on your Apollo 8P, but when UAD came out on this forum with the new 8p release and said they cant go over the 4 sharc limit (not a space thing, but ran out connectors) - I thought thats going to be tough on the Apollo 8p to split 4 sharcs across 8 inputs. But perhaps when you have that many tracks you have simpler chains for a bass or a snare etc.

This is the first time on the forum who has one bring it up.
 
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M

mpedrummer

Member
That sorta makes sense, except that it couldn't be loaded on an 8 (not 8p) either. And for your Twin Duo, the two plugs add up to well less than a full SHARC, so it should work, no? I also have a Twin Duo, and it didn't work there, either.
 
S

sjgam

Venerated Member
mpedrummer said:
That sorta makes sense, except that it couldn't be loaded on an 8 (not 8p) either. And for your Twin Duo, the two plugs add up to well less than a full SHARC, so it should work, no? I also have a Twin Duo, and it didn't work there, either.
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Well actually the BX20 is about 34% and the Marshall is about 47% so you are at 81% of one chip and then there is console - getting up there. I am not with my UAD gear so cant check myself. Maybe play around and put something a bit lower - say two BX20a t 2 X 32% is only 68% - to see if its working at a slightly lower consumption. If they dont work then you have issues. But the pair you selected is at 81% plus console usage might be "normal". Also I have found - dont know the pattern or logic quite yet - but sometimes the order I put them in - not order top to bottom but the order I physically put them in one after another. As you can imagine there is some sort of distribution logic in play as you pile them up and its trying to ram them in. This also is true for aux and tracks - the order I put in on aux vs track can trip it over the dsp limit and vice versa.

The part thats not clear for your 8p is are you fighting with a 1/2 dsp per channel or do you get one dsp max per track and if you tap all 4 sharcs on first four tracks then you have no dsp for remaining four?

Maybe Gannon can explain the distribution logic here.

I imagine its the same for people on silverface apollo duo's - they have to spread two sharcs across four inputs, like you have to spread 4 across 8. How does that work - 1/2 dsp max per channel?
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
sjgam said:
Well actually the BX20 is about 34% and the Marshall is about 47% so you are at 81% of one chip and then there is console - getting up there. I am not with my UAD gear so cant check myself. Maybe play around and put something a bit lower - say two BX20a t 2 X 32% is only 68% - to see if its working at a slightly lower consumption. If they dont work then you have issues. But the pair you selected is at 81% plus console usage might be "normal". Also I have found - dont know the pattern or logic quite yet - but sometimes the order I put them in - not order top to bottom but the order I physically put them in one after another. As you can imagine there is some sort of distribution logic in play as you pile them up and its trying to ram them in. This also is true for aux and tracks - the order I put in on aux vs track can trip it over the dsp limit and vice versa.

The part thats not clear for your 8p is are you fighting with a 1/2 dsp per channel or do you get one dsp max per track and if you tap all 4 sharcs on first four tracks then you have no dsp for remaining four?

Maybe Gannon can explain the distribution logic here.

I imagine its the same for people on silverface apollo duo's - they have to spread two sharcs across four inputs, like you have to spread 4 across 8. How does that work - 1/2 dsp max per channel?
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Hi guys,

This is normal/expected behavior with the system. Each channel's audio path must be contained on a single DSP chip in order to maintain the low latency path. So, all plug-ins for a given channel have to load on a single DSP.

What you're running into is not a lack of DSP, but a lack of Program Memory. DSPs are the engines that run the plug-ins and Program Memory contains the instructions that change as you modify the controls. The more complex the algorithm (i.e. the more non-linearities in the model), the more a plug-in consumes Program Memory.

From the example that Kcatt posted, the Marshall Plexi uses about 55.2% of the DSP and 53.9% of the Program Memory. The BX20 uses 38.0% of the DSP and 72.3% of the Program Memory. So, by combining those two, the Program Memory goes over 100%.

The best way to work around this is to put reverbs and delays or other effects on Aux returns because they will load on another chip if there's room.

Hope that helps!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
 
Kcatthedog

Kcatthedog

Hall of Fame Member
Cool thx but in your 5 minute video you show inserting bx20 on channel but this will only work to 100% of memory or is there a lower threshold ?
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
mpedrummer said:
Good to know. Is the memory breakdown available to the public somewhere? It wasn't on the instance chart.
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I don't believe that's been part of the grid historically. We should probably consider it as many of the new plug-ins are consuming more Program Memory than before.

If you want to see it, open the System Info tab in the Meter & Control Panel and you can see, chip by chip, what the DSP, Program Memory and External Memory consumption is.

Cheers,

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
Kcatthedog said:
Cool thx but in your 5 minute video you show inserting bx20 on channel but this will only work to 100% of memory or is there a lower threshold ?
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Well, not quite. :)

Remember the plug-ins only have to fit on a single DSP when used on a channel strip in the Apollo Console - it's a realtime processing issue.

In the DAW, there is no limitation - they'll fall wherever they can. So, when you're mixing you can load them directly onto tracks or use a send & return - whatever suits your needs.

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
Kcatthedog said:
be nice to have a button in console and see memory consumption by channel ?
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Yeah, right now, it's total system resources displayed at the bottom of Console Window.

Definitely something to consider.

Thanks!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
 
Kcatthedog

Kcatthedog

Hall of Fame Member
ok so in console, if I want to play guitar into the bx20 vibe, I can use 1 instance per channel(wet/dry) or instantiate on aux ?
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
Kcatthedog said:
ok so in console, if I want to play guitar into the bx20 vibe, I can use 1 instance per channel(wet/dry) or instantiate on aux ?
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I'd use it on an Aux Return and leave your channel inserts open for Unison, amp sims, compression, eq, etc.

Two reasons:

1) Auxes are mono in/stereo out, so you can hear the BX20 in glorious stereo.
2) If you love what you're getting, you can always print the Aux, group it in Pro Tools and edit it as a single entity.

Best of both worlds. :)

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
 
S

sjgam

Venerated Member
UniversalAudio said:
Yeah, right now, it's total system resources displayed at the bottom of Console Window.

Definitely something to consider.

Thanks!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
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Gannon - Sorry another question on dsp/memory distribution on the aux channels. Does it help to split plugins across both aux channels or with multiple plugins on only one aux on console, will the single aux plugins get stuffed into remaining space across the input tracks?

And sorry out of curiosity - how does it work with Twin Single, Apollo Duo, and Apollo 8p that each has twice as many inputs as dsp chips. Is there a 50% max on each input or can you fill them out and remaining inputs wont allow any more plugins?
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
sjgam said:
Gannon - Sorry another question on dsp/memory distribution on the aux channels. Does it help to split plugins across both aux channels or with multiple plugins on only one aux on console, will the single aux plugins get stuffed into remaining space across the input tracks?

And sorry out of curiosity - how does it work with Twin Single, Apollo Duo, and Apollo 8p that each has twice as many inputs as dsp chips. Is there a 50% max on each input or can you fill them out and remaining inputs wont allow any more plugins?
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Hey Sjgam,

No worries! I think what you're asking in first part is - do we manage DSP intelligently or do you need to intervene? The answer is, we do shuffle and manage what goes on under the hood. Everything loads where there's the most room, so yes they can go anywhere. You can see it in realtime if you open the Meter & Control panel and open the System Info tab.

In some cases, you must use a single plug-in per Aux because they exceed the resources of a single chip- you can't put a BX20 and RMX16 on the same aux, for example (not that you would!). And, the resources get consumed effieinee.

There is no limit on DSP consumption for SOLO/DUO/QUAD devices that have more input channels than chips - you can only do so much with one chip, but we don't limit it artificially.

Hope that helps!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
 
S

sjgam

Venerated Member
UniversalAudio said:
Hey Sjgam,

No worries! I think what you're asking in first part is - do we manage DSP intelligently or do you need to intervene? The answer is, we do shuffle and manage what goes on under the hood. Everything loads where there's the most room, so yes they can go anywhere. You can see it in realtime if you open the Meter & Control panel and open the System Info tab.

In some cases, you must use a single plug-in per Aux because they exceed the resources of a single chip- you can't put a BX20 and RMX16 on the same aux, for example (not that you would!). And, the resources get consumed effieinee.

There is no limit on DSP consumption for SOLO/DUO/QUAD devices that have more input channels than chips - you can only do so much with one chip, but we don't limit it artificially.

Hope that helps!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa
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Thanks - that was my questions answered and you rephrased my questions more clearly than I asked them. Thanks.
 
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