Input delay compensation question.

Hi, I am wondering something about the 'input delay compensation' parameter found in the settings/hardware page in Console 2.0.

It is used when for example you are recording a source such as a kit with several mics and using different plugins across the tracks.

I am using protools and have the monitor bus routed to virtual 1/2 in Console 2. In protools I have engaged 'low latency monitoring' and 'delay compensation'. In Console 2 I have IDC switched OFF. I am not using any plugins at the moment in the DAW itself.

I was recording on my own last night - just guide vox and acoustic guitar. I am in two minds whether to leave this tune as a folky type with just the vocal and guitar or to add in a band with kit bass gtr etc. later but am going to leave myself the option. Therefore, I spent time on mic placement for my initial recording pass last night in case I 'get it in one take' and decide to go the folky route.

So, to that end I set up a stereo pair on the guitar - one off axis of sound hole to avoid boom and the other on the neck joint for zing. The neck one is always the weaker of the two in signal strength but I leave it alone as it is what the mic is 'hearing' in the pair (I can always split a stereo track into 2x mono if I need to adjust later anyway). I close mic these or sometimes position at a distance of a half foot to a foot depending on fullness of sound I am after. Further away is good for vocal and guitar only stuff without band around it I find, more natural 'in the room' with the performer sound.

I use a condenser on the vox at about 3/4 to a foot distance and a stereo pair placed higher back in the room for ambience. There will be some bleed but it an be minimized with correct angle of mics and patterns etc.

So all in all 2 x stereo pairs and one mono checking phase along the way for alignment.

I have a question for you:

I like to run all sources through 'OXIDE' then 'LA-2' and PRINT them to DAW.
I have input delay compensation OFF in settings of Console 2.0

I have experienced no latency issues at all with IDC turned off in console 2 but I think it is because all tracks are running through the exact same plugins so are all being delayed by the same amount, so aligned anyway. I suppose if I were to use a DSP heavy user like a UNISON channel strip on just one of my five sources I would possibly experience a lag and would need to turn IDC on in Console 2.
Is my understanding of this correct and the fact I am printing through the exact same plugins across all tracks is the reason I do not need to turn on IDC in console 2?

What do you reckon?

I think you're right that your phase alignment is staying in place only because you're using all the same plugins, so the delay is the same. If it wasn't, you likely wouldn't hear a delay, but it would throw your phase off.

You should be using delay comp on in console 2. It'll only ever do what is needed to keep phase alignment across multiple tracks. There's no reason to turn it off, and since you mention routing Pro Tools' output to a pair of virtual channels I'll point out that that doesn't matter and isn't effected by delay comp; it's just a monitor return, after all. And even if you were using plugins on that virtual channel and then recapturing it as a new track in the DAW (as in, using it as a mix bus) it still wouldn't matter if delay comp was on or off because it's just one track.

The rest of your settings are right, just no need to turn off delay comp in Console. I'd leave it at medium. It is probably not causing you a problem now, but someday you'll set something up differently and if you don't remember to switch it on and be messed up. And in the meantime, it won't hurt anything to have it on during this current setup.

jnTracks said:

I think you're right that your phase alignment is staying in place only because you're using all the same plugins, so the delay is the same. If it wasn't, you likely wouldn't hear a delay, but it would throw your phase off.

You should be using delay comp on in console 2. It'll only ever do what is needed to keep phase alignment across multiple tracks. There's no reason to turn it off, and since you mention routing Pro Tools' output to a pair of virtual channels I'll point out that that doesn't matter and isn't effected by delay comp; it's just a monitor return, after all. And even if you were using plugins on that virtual channel and then recapturing it as a new track in the DAW (as in, using it as a mix bus) it still wouldn't matter if delay comp was on or off because it's just one track.

The rest of your settings are right, just no need to turn off delay comp in Console. I'd leave it at medium. It is probably not causing you a problem now, but someday you'll set something up differently and if you don't remember to switch it on and be messed up. And in the meantime, it won't hurt anything to have it on during this current setup.

Click to expand...

Ah, yeah I do remember reading that IDC is only applied as required alright.
I will leave it on medium as you suggest as it could very happen to forget to turn it on on other sessions I guess:roll:
I know the plugins would have nothing to do with the actual mics themselves being in phase what I meant was ensuring they are by listening prior to adding any additional processing, same as you would with an all analog mixer and multi-miking a source.

Cheers for that!

I always leave IDC off. Pretty sure it actually does affect latency if it's on. I'll remeasure just to be sure, though.

Matt Hepworth said:

I always leave IDC off. Pretty sure it actually does affect latency if it's on. I'll remeasure just to be sure, though.

Click to expand...

Hi guys -

Here's what we recommend - from the Apollo Software Manual:

When To Use Console Input Delay Compensation

Console IDC is required to maintain phase alignment only when BOTH of the following conditions are active:

1. Multiple Console inputs are used for a single source (such as a drum kit using multiple microphones), and

2. Any of those input channels contain upsampled UAD plug-ins.

Tip: When IDC is not needed, disable Console IDC for the lowest possible input latency.

It adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa

Thanks, GK. I just looked at my notes and showed 100 samples added, but hoped I hadn't gone crazy for nothing.

There is a list of plugins with extra latency in UAD plugins guide page 576

UniversalAudio said:

Hi guys -

Here's what we recommend - from the Apollo Software Manual:

When To Use Console Input Delay Compensation

Console IDC is required to maintain phase alignment only when BOTH of the following conditions are active:

1. Multiple Console inputs are used for a single source (such as a drum kit using multiple microphones), and

2. Any of those input channels contain upsampled UAD plug-ins.

Tip: When IDC is not needed, disable Console IDC for the lowest possible input latency.

It adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa

Click to expand...

Ah, thanks........ there is a list of plugins which have additional latency on page 576 of the plugin user manual too http://media.uaudio.com/support/downloads/UAD_Plug-Ins_Manual_v86.pdf

Correct. There's also a list I sent Gannon that includes third party plugin latency. Don't know if there's a pretty form of it in existence yet.

UniversalAudio said:

Hi guys -

Here's what we recommend - from the Apollo Software Manual:

When To Use Console Input Delay Compensation

Console IDC is required to maintain phase alignment only when BOTH of the following conditions are active:

1. Multiple Console inputs are used for a single source (such as a drum kit using multiple microphones), and

2. Any of those input channels contain upsampled UAD plug-ins.

Tip: When IDC is not needed, disable Console IDC for the lowest possible input latency.

It adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains.

Cheers!

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info guys. Are the unison mic preamps included in this group of "unsampled plug ins"? I routinely track drums on my 8P, all running through the Neve 1073 unison pre, but no additional plugs or processing. Should I have IDC on or off?

mchunter7 said:

Thanks for the info guys. Are the unison mic preamps included in this group of "unsampled plug ins"? I routinely track drums on my 8P, all running through the Neve 1073 unison pre, but no additional plugs or processing. Should I have IDC on or off?

Click to expand...

Hi Mchunter,

If they're all the same, I'd turn IDC off and save the DSP.

-GK
Gannon Kashiwa

Yep, and remember, lots of plugins don't add any latency at all (like the dbx 160), so you can tack those on, too.

I am so confused with all of this.. My head feels like it's going to explode...

1) I believe console will tell you when you have exceeded the IDC setting threshold, yes?

2) I thought the entire point of apollo was to monitor with uad plugins and no additional latency.. Does this mean that every plugin i add that has latency, adds it to my monitoring path on whatever apollo channel they are on? There aren't that many i want to use that don't have additional latency!

3)I believe when IDC is ON it adds input latency and changes the figures reported to the DAW.. this is essential, so the DAW can correctly position recorded audio. Does anyone know if pro tools will compensate the IDC correctly and place recordings sample accurate? I know Logic/S1/& Cubase will, but I am not so sure about PT. I would assume i'd close PT if i changed my apollo IDC setting, and then re open it so it can get the new correct input buffer latency

This is why the RTL of apollo through the DAW itself is much lower with IDC off, correct?

Cheers

1) I don't know. If it does, I've never seen the warning.

2) Yes, well... The point is that you're monitoring before the native buffer of your DAW software. This is MUCH longer than the small delay console can introduce if you're using upsampled plugins. It's not a performance timing issue, it's a phase alignment issue. Vastly different time scales. It only matters in console if you are using multiple microphones on the same source so they have a phase relationship, AND you're using a plugin that upsamples on one or more of those channels. Both those conditions at the same time.

3) Yes, Pro Tools handles this correctly, like any other DAW. About the closing and reopening when settings are changed... uuuuuhhhhh well the delay would change every time you added or removed an upsampling plugin from one of the console channels; not just when you turned IDC on or off. I've never closed and reopened pro tools or anything else when I was changing plugins around and I've never had any issues. Stays phase aligned. So I think it's fine and doesn't need to be worried about.

1) Ok thanks, just found in the manual that it does

2) Disagree. To use just a few UAD plugins, all the good ones are upsampled, could add something like 6 or 8ms latency to a monitoring path. With IDC disabled, it is not magically stopping the extra latency of those plugins when monitoring through them. All the good verbs. comps, delays.. all have latency.. in fact there is almost a ms added just per unison plugin. It's over 1ms for each instance of the 55 sample group where most of them fall in (at 44/48k).
If i were to use apollo at 32 samples with idc off, the rtl is around 4ms. I can add as many zero latency native plugins as i want, and have no additional latency.
The whole low latency through apollo mixer is a fallacy all this time.. again there is no tape plugin that doesn't add latency, no good reverb.. ocean ways adds 3 ms! Just one plugin!

If you clearly read the manual as i did after my posts, uad's claim of the 1.1ms roundtrip at 96 k with 4 plugins in series is ONLY if you use plugins that are NOT upsampled.

So, UAD should be providing realtime versions for those who just want to monitor through them FFS, of at least the modulations/reverbs/delays. We should have the option of NON upsampled versions.

I couldn't work it out the last few weeks, cause some of my channels playing midi hardware synths felt like there was a big delay when pressing my midi KB to hearing the sound through console, and some felt uber responsive. The timing was all tight when recording though..then i realised, these channels have upsampled plugins on them some with 33 sample delay some with 50, but 4 combined is adding almost 5ms delay on top of the 2ms RTL at 48K already present without any plugins.

It also begs the question.. if IDC is off, recordings to the DAW would have to be out by the exact combined latency of UAD upsampled plugins in the signal path of said track. I will be doing tests on this all day today, as i have plenty free time today after a few chores I have to do.

I'll also be compiling a list of all the non up sampled plugins, i.e plugins that can be used truly without additional latency.

3) I remember there was a big issue with PT vanilla for a while, cause unlike other DAW's you can't set recording delay offsets for incorrectly reported buffers.. Which is why one has to make sure they buy an interface that reports correctly (hence why apollo is a good choice, I just needed to know if PT could update, thanks for clarifying).

UA manuals say to close and re open the daw when changing IDC settings.. i should have read the manual before these questions, sorry, i answered most of them myself.

Now, regarding my theory why IDC has to be on even if only using upsampled plugins on individual tracks that are not multi miked.. for example on a vocal, then on a synth on channel 2, and so on.. instead of on multi mike instruments or drums.. YES, the IDC is basically it's own internal apollo mixer PDC so it maintains phase relationships between multi miked instruments that may have latent plugins on one channel but not on the other.. HOWEVER, even with IDC OFF, the latency of added plugins still EXISTS..
Once again, if i have say 8 channels of totally different instruments that have various plugins with various latencies spread across them, these will be recorded LATE into the daw by those latency amounts per channel with IDC OFF. Therefore, DSP aside, i would strongly suggest having at least the 100 sample setting on, so one can use a couple of the most common (50 samples and under) latent plugins and have them line up in the DAW perfectly.

NOW, I am NOT sure whether this will just affect recorded tracks where the effects are printed.. so i'll have to do some sample accurate tests today, zoom in to the recordings and check this all out.

But right now, for me, the UAD is a farce because I was under the impression i could use ANY uad plugin other than ampex and the multi band comp in apollo mixer without latency and have no more than 2ms RTL.

It's making WAY more sense now to sell this, upgrade my computer to the imac pro when out, and use a couple of the new presonus quantum TB daisy chained.. with as many native plugins as i want and no additional monitoring latency. I will lose unison and effects print features, i.e ability of digital compressors for example prior converters, but I'll have lowest possible monitoring latency. Being a heavy outboard synth user, all these synths besides the analog ones have their OWN latency to begin with, which I have adjusted in pro tools via the midi clock delay per synth, so they record perfectly on time. But the latency is still present in the monitoring path. Adding uad fx to these keeps on increasing latency.. i calculated some of my channels monitoring latency at equal to or even over 10MS with the synth's own latency and the apollo monitoring latency of the plugins i tend to use.

goodbye lex 224/ocean ways and pretty much every other good uad plugin for monitoring. WOW.

UAD are so misleading cause one would HAVE to carefully read the manual to know all this. They advertise it as 4 plugins chained and no latency other than nominal latency that is present even without plugins. This is a LIE and only applied to certain plugins.

UAD heed my call - please create a folder of "zero latency" versions.. those of use who do not care about aliasing when monitoring and are happy to use NON UPSAMPLED plugins FOR monitoring purposes. How can it hurt? Just DO IT!

Solutions to investigate - HD native with Antelope Goliath, Presonus Quantum setup or Avid HDX, or a waves digigrid.

Once again, the good uad plugins are no different to native monitoring.. they add latency,.. and it more than balances out cause MOST native plugins don't have additional latency. In fact i have 200 plugins right here that are zero latency or CAN be zero latency when look ahead or oversampling is disabled (for example in fab filter plugins, they can all be true zero latency including their FABulous eq and reverb).

I can FEEL anything above 4ms. I am a pianist and do all my sounds via KB playing, drums included.. I just *knew* something was up, some tracks feeling so sloppy when playing them live, and this topic has opened my eyes and cleared it all up. Thank you for the truth.

TNM said:

1)

I'll also be compiling a list of all the non up sampled plugins, i.e plugins that can be used truly without additional latency.

Click to expand...

The manual lists those that do add latency (except 3rd party) and their accompanying latencies. All the others are zero latency.

Solutions to investigate - HD native with Antelope Goliath, Presonus Quantum setup or Avid HDX, or a waves digigrid.

Click to expand...

I have owned all those (Symphony I/O instead of Goliath).

None have made me 100% happy. HD Accel is still the best 44.1 option, and it's dirt cheap.


I currently have:

An Apollo rig. I do not use IDC. For singer/songwriter and acoustic projects I use 96kHz for latency reasons. I do use Unison. For bands I use 44.1kHz and use plugins across all channels, including Unison. I have a chart of what plugins have exactly what latency to stay lined up without IDC—even using separate converters over ADAT. I have a good formula and Console setting that works really well.

OWS is on every one of those sessions, but on an aux, of course. I use it with an omni mic in a particular way. I mute the dry and send pre fader. The added latency is fine there. I record the aux and keep a copy of the dry for a safety.


A 24x24 HD Native rig powered by Symphony I/O. This rig has higher monitoring latency than Apollo, so I mostly use it at 96kHz for new projects for latency reasons. For 44.1kHz mixing projects where I need to punch in I have to freeze all tracks and stick the buffer at 32. This is still more latency than Apollo (even with the extra 55 samples from Unison plugin). It bothers some vocalists, so I'll use LLM in that instance and deal with the limited mix options and no effects or reverb. Latency is 0.5ms for the single pair of LLM monitoring channels.

A pair of 24 and 32 channel HD 4 Accel rigs. One at home with AVID and Apollo combo and the other at the studio with 24x24 Symphony I/O plus another 8 channels overflow from Apollo when needed (ADAT to ADAT). These are the day to day tracking rigs. Nothing touches the low latency of TDM at 44.1kHz. This system is limited to PT10, of course, and the new installers from all kinds of vendors are losing compatibility with 10.8.5 and 10.9.5 it requires.

Well, almost nothing touches TDM at 44.1, but I, like you, can't really embrace Studio One enough to run with that combo of Quantum & Studio One, although it is VERY capable.

--Right Matt, so i am composing a list of plugins NOT in that list so i can have them available at quick glance. That makes perfect sense to do as far as I am concerned rather than looking through the list each time to see if the plugin I am about to insert has latency.

--However since UA do not list the 3rd party plugin latency, and since this info is nowhere to be found, I will only be able to make a list of the 30 or so UAD developed plugins without latency

--I've just tested the latency of one of my average uad apollo channels here, with an aux reverb and delay, and 2 comps and EQ inserts.. wonderful, i am monitoring through 10ms latency! What a farce! Unison adds 1.25 ms latency at 44K, so add that to the 2.3 standard latency to go through the DSP mixer, and we are already at 3.55 ms monitoring latency. Add the 32 samples of the aux buss, PLUS the 84 samples of the 224 i have on it - another 2.63 ms latency.. so far I am at 6.18 ms latency.. this is a very normal scenario.. Oh and forget being able to monitor an electric guitar through the spring reverb, as that has 22ms latency on it's own! My goodness. Anyway...
6.18ms latency is ridiculous as it is. This is just by using a single vocal with unison enabled and a verb on the aux which is standard stuff! Why didn't i get a digital console!
We haven't even touched compressors, tape and EQ yet.. WOW!

let's use up the 4 inserts now..

let's add tape, oxide, which i have on every channel. That's 55 more samples monitoring latency, or 1.24 ms.
let's add a pultec Eq , an LA2A and an 1176. All standard stuff. We now have another 3.74 between those 3 effects. So 4 very real world inserts equals 5ms monitoring latency.

My vocal is now being monitored through 11.18 ms of monitoring latency. I am speechless.

Use a midi synth instead and make that 13 ms as most of them have around ~2ms latency. Some higher.

UAD sells the apollo as a low latency solution with 4 uad plugins in series. It's all in the fine print.. you have to use the 30 plugins that are NOT on the upsampled list, and not use unison. You also have to use one of the old crappy verbs that make native verbs look like rolls royce in comparison.

I have worked out a similar native chain using softube FET which is 0.1 ms, and the rest fab filter plugins at 0ms.

I can actually get LOWER latency disabling IDC, and monitoring the apollo through my DAW with native plugins! But why would i spent the thousands and thousand of dollars on apollos and uad plugins to do that? I'd have bought a simple native solution.

I had asked this question so many times and i was always told i could put 4 uad plugins per channel without latency. I mean, am I really the first one exposing this?

--Who even knows if IDC works for the 3rd party plugins by the way, since UAD won't divulge their latency. I guess I am going to have to find out their latencies by adding them till the IDC low 100ms threshold notification comes up. If it never does, am i to presume that third party plugins have zero latency? I am now going to have to contact sonnox, softube and plugin alliance to find out what their plug in latency is. WOW.

--As I see it now, one can only monitor through apollo with 2.3 ms latency at 44k or 1.1ms at 96K, if using just 30 of the not so great older uad made plugins. That's it.
To say I am upset is an understatement. all my monitoring latency issues have finally been explained, i actually had convinced myself I was imagining the latency! I am actually upset that I have been vindicated, i would have actually rather been a tiny bit mad in this case.

--A HD native rig has 3.8 ms latency at 44.1. You can add tons of native plugins, up to 10 inserts if you wish, and keep it at that figure. It is only higher than apollo if you are NOT using comps/EQ's/delays/verbs in apollo's mixer! You are talking about dry recording without monitoring! the whole reason i bought apollo was to have ULL monitoring and ba able to create complex fx mixes in console whilst not taxing my cpu! What's the point when the latency is this high?

And there are many native interfaces that are lower than HDN.

--What you are basically saying is, that apollo is low when not using fx. Big deal! In that case, i can buy ANY native interface that has it's own hardware mixer, even without any DSP, and enable it's direct monitoring mode that bypasses the DAW.. and have WAY lower latency than apollo! it's only the ad/da latency in this case, often something like 1.5 MS RTL at 44K! The whole point of apollo is TO use effects!

-- What's the point of TDM? i use PT 12! I could ONLY use PT and felt comfy with it WITH Pt12 and up! Otherwise i'd be on cubase or logic! So for ME at least, your point doesn't make sense. We used to use Logic 4 with a G3 and a tdm mix cube system and never touched the PT software.. logic could use DAE in those days, and yes it was very low latency indeed. But those days are over and I don't have the racks and racks of hardware fx also like i had back then.. I changed my entire way of working like many of us have with the advance of computers and the DAWs themselves.

Sorry mate, i think I have been scammed the scam of the century here. I'll be speaking to universal about it, and adding clear disclaimers on their PRODUCT page that only few plugins can be used without additional monitoring latency and that they won't disclose the latency of the 3rd party plugins. If the vendors don't answer I am going to have to do loopbacks and work out latency for every single 3rd party plugin in myself. The thought of this is so daunting to me. I think i better just sell up and go native. I've had it. I need 4MS or UNDER total RTL monitoring latency WITH good fx. Obviously only native, or a digital mixer can do this. Honestly i prefer the reverb of my yamaha MGP32X analog console than the UAD ones which are not upsampled, ie the old ones that have no latency. Maybe i'll get a second one of those consoles, and just get an 8 input vanilla interface of some kind, monitor through the analog desk, zero latency, and record 8 tracks at a time into the DAW (4 bus console, so 2 of them is 8 bus and 4 effects, as well as 32 channel comps and a master multiband comp on each).

I have a LOT of thinking to do and budgeting. It's a sad day for me as i set up an entire studio built on a lie.

Ps please let me know what S1's cpu meter is like with the quantum at 32 samples, please. I might just put up with it. 1.6ms RTL at 44.1 means i could keep it under 2ms at all times even with a bunch of native FX, even with 4 softube effects as they add 0.1ms latency each, and 0 at 96K. Most native effects bar linear phase stuff ARE 0 latency with oversampling disengaged.

With Symphony I/O instead of goliath, it's not the same thing.

With antelope you can monitor through their DSP effects and mixer, and avoid the HDN driver altogether. They then have a special trick to make sure everything is sample accurate when recording to PT.

I have received a very detailed reply from them explaining all this latency to me...

it's only 2 samples to use the antelope FX. 2 samples. The RTL without effects is lower than apollo.. so the latency would be way lower than apollo even when using 4 fx per channel. Only problem is, there is only one verb, and no delay or modulation fx of any kind. They have no plans to add any more reverbs or any other creative fx. Just non stop EQ's and comps. So this, for 10K, is not going to be my solution.

Those are lots of things to reply to and I don't have a chance to reply in depth at the moment.

I don't think any of the Apollo info is hidden, and remember Unison didn't even exist yet when Apollo released. You're right, though, Can, and Does are quite different and depend on the situation/context.

So,
It's not 2 samples latency with Antelope. It's the converter delay plus *at least* two samples. It is very low latency, to be sure. Again, though, two environments (monitoring and playback).

Goliath and Symphony I/O are the same if you're using them with the HD Native card, although you can optionally use some of the FX channels to route into PT and keep them time aligned. It DOES still use the HDN driver. There's no way around that when you're using the HDN card. You select HD Native as the playback engine and that's the driver you're using.

If you're using the Goliath's driver you're running purely native, like the Quantum and Apollo. Enable LLM in PT for the monitor mixer and effects.

It works well. Money no object, I think the Goliath HD is fantastic.

Check the DUC for posts from ProPower with all kinds of details and measurements with the new Orion.

There are flaws in your RTL math, but your info is mostly on track. You're not combing delay of a reverb send. You still have your original signal at its original latency, a 32 sample pre delay through the aux, and then an irrelevant delay from the reverb aux return (it doesn't supersede the source).

5–6ms round trip latency is definitely common at 44.1. In fact, default is around 4.5ms, as default IDC includes 100 samples of compensation. In my 44.1 usage I am at 3.5ms (with Unison) fully compensated manually by balancing plugins. I created a list a while back of all plugins and their latencies. I use this like the old manual delay comp before PT had it and save it as my Console session. I can even compensate for the digital input ADC delay difference.

-->BTW, most digital mixers have 3–4ms RTL.

You also keep mentioning VIs, meaning you're compounding the driver's RTL with Console's RTL. This is not unique to Apollo.

TDM
The sad truth is TDM systems have the lowest latency. Newer systems have more. Even PT12 HDX has more latency than PT10 Accel. The newer systems have regressed in that regard. Also, arguably, in stability.

Having owned and used HDN I promise you cannot keep it on that latency figure unless you're doing tiny projects. You absolutely have to freeze all your tracks in order to track when you're hip deep in a mix, or use the single send, effectless LLM.

I think you don't fully realize the pitfalls. I've owned them. I've used them. All require workarounds.

S1
This is the exception—at least for audio.
You should research Quantum with VIs. I know it handles those differently latency-wise, but I don't use them, so I don't know.

CPU could handle pretty reasonable projects at the lowest setting (16) because of the hybrid buffering. That was a 2012 i7 MBP and I did a live band project with all 27 inputs on top of playback tracks and punching in. Effects on all tracks. CPU wasn't loving it, but wasn't crapping out or glitching.

Last note:
You and I are in a very tiny minority where we're bothered by very small amounts of latency.

Over at the DUC I get regularly jumped by a certain mod (not Drew, who is awesome) every time I mention latency. He thinks anyone needing anything below 128 buffer for tracking with HDN at 44.1 is full of g****s. He routinely tracks his clients at 256 buffer with HDN and only switches down to 128 when necessary.

You and I are not normal, but not insane either.

No.. if i use the goliath mixer as my monitoring hub, it may use the hdn driver to record, but the latency is the GOLIATH's and bypasses HDN completely. Like the apollo. If i got a Goliath i would only use their mixer. And of course I know it's the adda+maybe a mixer dsp delay plus the 2 samples.. I said that the effects only add 2 samples, and without effects the RTL is lower than the apollo's mixer, which it is. That's all. I'll read the rest later.

Sorry, having to open manuals to find info not on the product page is not cool. I'll stick to that.

Especially not cool after such a massive investment.


let's just face facts that besides some older UA manufactured plugins, the apollo + four inline uad plugins at 2ms and under RTL is a LIE and BS sales spin. Do you really think, if i knew what I worked out today just a few hours ago, i would have spent over 10 thousand dollars on UAD? There wouldn't even be a chance. And i specifically tried to research this before i spent the money.. so the info is NOT that easy to just find. It will be now, that i have given such detailed info which will come up in google searches.
Maybe i will save others from thinking they can put whatever eq's and comps and verbs they want to monitor through and not have delay.

heck, i have no idea what the softube and brainworx guitar amps delays are even. This is not cool. let's not forget, using a guitar amp adds to the already massive latency i reported above, if one is using a verb and multiple comps and EQ's. And what's with the only spring verb on the platform having 22 ms latency? Did you know i actually BOUGHT the spring verb without even thinking to look at the plugins manual, where i would have to search for that section to find the delay figure, and bought it so i could play electric guitar through a spring verb? what a joke.

please understand I am very upset right now, and i WILL calm down. But i think i have also proved that in no way is HDX higher latency.. HDX is lower if you are not using FX, and there are many hd fx with 33 samples or 10 samples, which is still lower than apollo.

PS.. it also means one HAS to record their external midi as audio to have solid timing with audio tracks and VI's in the DAW.. this is why things are out of time when i am using apollo as a hardware mixer, depending on what FX i add. Cause there is latency being added everywhere to the realtime path!