Good AD/DA to expand IO of Apollo 8p

ndrik

Member
Hello UAD Forums,

This is my first post, and my first UAD interface. I hope this post doesn't go against the rules.

I've recently upgraded my ZEDR16 for a new APB Spectra Ti24 mixer and an APOLLO 8P soundcard + Octo, as UAD had their end of year offer. While the upgrade sounds much better to my ears (from the APB EQs and summing, to the AD/DA of the Apollo), I'm currently short on cash to get another Apollo 16 to expand my IOs to what I need. I'm one of few that were misinformed regarding the ADAT expandability of the Apollo 8p.

With the ZEDR16, I was very used to being able to record every track at once, without bothering with a patchbay, and I'd love to find a way to get back to a similar workflow. I had planned on doing so by plugging the Direct outs of all channels to my digital IOs via the Apollo and a Ferrofish 16, but it was only after ordering the Apollo that I discovered it can only do 8 IO channels via ADAT.
As such, I'm looking for current or good alternatives to expand via ADAT my current IOs, either new or second hands. I couldn't find any other threads talking about this here.

My budget is <1000€, and while I could spend 1000€ I'd rather have something decent with a good enough resale value while I'm saving up for an Apollo 16 as 24 IO is what I'd like to get to.

I've stumbled on a few decent deals for the following cards but I'm not sure I can use them as an ADAT extensions.
I should add I'm doing electronic music, so don't need the Mic Pres per se.
  • Apogee Ensemble FW (I know the converters are good on this one, but not sure I can slave it to the Apollo)
  • Apogee AD/16 X
  • Lynx Aurora 8
  • Focusrite Clarett OctoPre

Being new to the world of ADAT and AD/DA, I'm sure I missed quite a few. Any tips on this setup are highly welcome too, while I did study the whole upgrade thing, there were many caveats I simply didn't know of Basically really want to get a workflow similar to what I could have with the ZEDR16 internal routings.
 

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
The AD16X is one of my favorites, but you'll only be able to use half its channels and it has no DA. It's little brother, the Rosetta 800, should be considered.

The Mackie Blackbird does a good job and is dirt cheap used. Only 4 samples different than the conversion on the Apollo.

The Clarett OctoPre is 4 samples different at 44/48, and 5 samples different at 88/96. Slightly better quality than the Mackie.

PreSonus DP88. Digitally controlled pres, but very clean sounding. 29 samples different from Apollo, but I use that to my advantage by using certain plugins to compensate (Console IDC off).

I actually have all three of the above units with preamps right now. DP88 will be the one I keep in my mobile rig.
 

ndrik

Member
Thank you for your insights. I've been looking at the Rosetta 800 too, but couldn't find any for sale close to here.

How does the Mackie compare quality wise to the Apollo 8p?

I'm mostly working at 48kHz/24bits, and couldn't justify going higher, but that was also due to my previous setup. I'm now hearing things I couldn't hear since changing both the mixer and the soundcard. I'm not familiar however with why one should be wary of the samples difference between to AD/DA. Why is that? Where can I find information regarding this and more specifically geared toward the Appollo 8p?

I'm watching an auction for a silver Apogee Ensemble, which could end up cheaper than the clarett OctoPre or the DP88, is it worth it? or will I encounter issues I'm not aware of? I only know that the quality of the AD/DA is not far from the 8p, and i'd rather not go back to the quality I had before.

Also realised that in the long run, when I get an Apollo 16, I could still use the AD/DA and would get 32 IOs, which would be perfect for me, so would ideally want something than can stand the test of time somehow.
 

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
Think of it this way: you're recording drums and you're using your 8 inputs for them, but you also want to add a snare bottom mic and a ride mic. Both will have comb filtering/phase issues because they are coming in a few samples off being fed by your outboard AD. DA will only matter for mixing through a console or summing, unless you're sending one to a headphone mix system as a "more me" scenario.

Honestly, the Ensemble is possibly around the quality of the Mackie, but darker sounding. The pres have good gain. I don't think it runs on any 64 bit OS, which will make setting it up in stand alone mode a bit tricky. I don't have one anymore, but it's not the greatest of the Apogee boxes. I'd thought the same as you at first...

I just did exactly what you mentioned with the 32 in scenario when I was just away recording an album. I took the studio with me thanks to a couple Apollos and some preamps.
 

TheHopiWay

Active Member
The Mackie Blackbird does a good job and is dirt cheap used. Only 4 samples different than the conversion on the Apollo.
Hey Matt, Does the Blackbird set up for standalone without using software? That may be a decent solution for a problem I'm facing. Use it as a temporary interface while my Apollo gets some work done then rack it up for extra pres as a standalone. They seem to be around the 200 + price point used. 25 bucks per mic pres is a great deal if they're usable for drums.

Also is the Focusrite Saphire Pro 40 any good? I'm not familiar with their stuff at all but those seem loaded feature for dollar provided the sound and build are OK.
 
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scratch17

Venerated Member
You should consider the MOTU 828ES.

ESS Sabre 32 Ultra DACs
8 TRS line inputs and outputs
2 Mic/Hi Z inputs
2 XLR main outs
2 stereo headphone outs
Stereo S/PDIF Coax inputs/outputs
2 pairs of ADAT in/out with S/MUX

AVB networking
Word clock in/out
Thunderbolt or USB2 connection to computer
Built in DSP for tracking with included effects
48 input mixer
Routing Grid is more flexible than Console App.

There are two ways to use this combination. One is obvious, the other is not. Both methods use ADAT to connect the two interfaces to one another. So the physical connections don't change. The change is made by setting up the software differently.

You can use the 8P as the main interface and the 828ES as an expander. That will give you 16 channels of excellent quality A/D. Of course, you use the Apollo 8P's DSP to host UA plugins in Console. Or you can load UA plugins in your DAW, use Live Track Mode and host them in your Octo. Don't forget that the 828ES will show up as ADAT inputs in Console. So you can use the Apollo's DSP to host non Unison plugins on those tracks too.

If you use Console to load plugins, you will monitor from the 8P. If you use Live Track mode, you will monitor from your DAW. Either way, it will be Apollo that outputs headphone and monitor mixes. Note that you will not use any of the MOTU software at all with this method.

This is the simplest way to use the combination, but it loses a lot of potential added functionality.

The second way to use these two interfaces together is by using the 828ES as the main interface and using the 8P as the expander. Again, the connections stay the same between the 8P and the 828ES. However, in this scenario you will need to connect both interfaces to your computer because you will be using both the UA software and the MOTU software, sometimes even at the same time.

In this method, you can monitor either from the Apollo or the 828ES. You simply switch the main interface in your DAW software and the signal flow via ADAT in/out reverses.

For example, let's say you want to do some tracking, with low latency monitoring through the Apollo. Select the Apollo in your DAW, and the 828ES becomes an ADAT expander. The Apollo becomes the main interface, sending its audio to your computer via TB. Just like it normally would be set up. The 828ES software would not be used when tracking this way.

Now let's look at what happens when you switch to the 828ES in your DAW. The Apollo now becomes an ADAT expander. But there are some notable differences.

First of all, unlike Apollo, the 828ES is not limited to 16 inputs. It has 8 line, 2 Mic / Hi Z and a stereo S/PDIF input, with two banks of ADAT. At 48Khz sample rate, each bank can carry sixteen channels. So you now get ten from the Apollo (8 line and stereo S/PDIF). So overall, you get 22 inputs by using the 828ES at 48 khz. At 96 Khz, you lose two inputs on Apollo, because it is limited to 8 channels at that sample rate.

Second, you get the MOTU mixer and routing grid. The mixer has more cues and aux busses than Console as well as EQ, gate, reverb and compression hosted by the 828ES on board DSP. The routing grid lets you send any input to any output. Or to multiple outputs. And to and from the computer. Or any other device on the AVB network.

You would set up the Console so that all inputs are routed to ADAT outputs and vice versa. Then you would add plugins into Console slots as usual. You still get Unison because the inputs are unaffected by the setup. If you want the least latency, you monitor from the Apollo, even when sending audio out of it to the 828ES.

In fact, you can probably monitor via the 828ES with less than 3 ms round trip latency, which would be imperceptible. You could also probably monitor from your DAW and use Live Track Mode to use your Octo. Even then, round trip latency would likely be less than 4 to 5 ms, depending on plugins used.

Note that in this scenario, you are using the MOTU mixer and routing grid to direct audio to and from your DAW. But Console is being used to slot UA plugins on the Apollo. Audio returning from your DAW through the 828ES will appear in Apollo as ADAT channels, so you will not use virtual channels in this scenario.

Finally, with the 828ES you get AVB which creates the potential for almost unlimited expansion. You should check out the MOTU web site for more info.
 

Dguidry

Venerated Member
Matt, almost pulled the trigger on a DP88 several times because of its routing features. Can you answer this for me? Am a correct in assuming I can insert outputs of an analog preamp into the DP88's db25 inputs and route them to the DP88 ADAT outputs thus bypassing the DP88's preamps? And, can I select select at will which preamps are sent to the ADAT outputs, the DP88's or the outboard preamp's, in any combination I want?
 

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
Matt, almost pulled the trigger on a DP88 several times because of its routing features. Can you answer this for me? Am a correct in assuming I can insert outputs of an analog preamp into the DP88's db25 inputs and route them to the DP88 ADAT outputs thus bypassing the DP88's preamps? And, can I select select at will which preamps are sent to the ADAT outputs, the DP88's or the outboard preamp's, in any combination I want?
Correct. Each channel has a Direct switch that takes from the DB25 line in on the back. You can mix and match per channel and both can be connected at all times.
 

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
Hey Matt, Does the Blackbird set up for standalone without using software? That may be a decent solution for a problem I'm facing. Use it as a temporary interface while my Apollo gets some work done then rack it up for extra pres as a standalone. They seem to be around the 200 + price point used. 25 bucks per mic pres is a great deal if they're usable for drums.

Also is the Focusrite Saphire Pro 40 any good? I'm not familiar with their stuff at all but those seem loaded feature for dollar provided the sound and build are OK.
The Blackbird had to connect initially, but it fully recalls the settings. I haven't had it out of stand alone for over a year. The quality is pretty good. Step up from the Pro 40 for sure.
 

Dguidry

Venerated Member
Correct. Each channel has a Direct switch that takes from the DB25 line in on the back. You can mix and match per channel and both can be connected at all times.
That's what I thought. Where's the AD conversion happening....in my Apollo Quad or the DP88? Gotta be in the DP88, right?
 

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
That's what I thought. Where's the AD conversion happening....in my Apollo Quad or the DP88? Gotta be in the DP88, right?
Yes, or you can route the preamps out directly to Apollo's line ins.
 

ndrik

Member
Think of it this way: you're recording drums and you're using your 8 inputs for them, but you also want to add a snare bottom mic and a ride mic. Both will have comb filtering/phase issues because they are coming in a few samples off being fed by your outboard AD. DA will only matter for mixing through a console or summing, unless you're sending one to a headphone mix system as a "more me" scenario.
I'm only doing electronic music, and working with synths, so there's little chance I'd record the same source from 2 different inputs. I plan on using the DA for summing through my APB Dynasonics Spectra, and overdubbing with hardware fx boxes. Kind of like for dub mixes...

Honestly, the Ensemble is possibly around the quality of the Mackie, but darker sounding. The pres have good gain. I don't think it runs on any 64 bit OS, which will make setting it up in stand alone mode a bit tricky. I don't have one anymore, but it's not the greatest of the Apogee boxes. I'd thought the same as you at first...
This is great to know. I had the assumption it was on par with the Apollo sound-wise. Again, I'm new to this converter world, but hearing the Apollo 8p was really a "wow" moment for me coming from the ZEDR16, so I don't want to go down now :p. I'm trying to build my setup for it to last the next 7-8 years.
 

ndrik

Member
I had read to quickly this response.
That possible setup looks great, however, I'd rather avoid working with MOTU again. I've never really got their CueMix system, and the less circumvulated the setup the better. It does however open the door to using ANY other thunderbolt and ADAT capable soundcard as a master with the newer UADs right?
I've also discovered yesterday evening how to use the Cue outputs as 4 extra Mono channels (or 2 stereo), which let me find a way to free up 2 of the backside outputs :)

Following up on my quest, I've found a quite cheap Blackbird, and might go for that in the meantime. I'm still very interested in the Clarett Octopre or the Audient ASP800, but the difference in price is pretty big, and the blackbird would allow me to save up for the Apollo 16 much faster :) Can't find anything bad regarding those devices yet.
 
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TheHopiWay

Active Member
Thanks for the tip Matt, I just grabbed one for peanuts (175+20 shipping). Looking forward to incorporating it in the system and being able to send my Apollo out for repair on the two line ins that are funky. Marc
The Blackbird had to connect initially, but it fully recalls the settings. I haven't had it out of stand alone for over a year. The quality is pretty good. Step up from the Pro 40 for sure.
 

ndrik

Member
Wanted to follow up on this one.

I ended up getting a second hand Clarett 8Pre in superb condition and under guarantee. I personnaly can't hear a difference in conversion quality with my 8P, so that's a great point.

I've linked both units with ADAT for both 8 extra Ins and Outs, as I sum everything on my mixer. The Toslink cables I bought however don't seem to hold in tightly in ether ports (on the clarett and the 8p). At times, it seems like the connection is creating small sort of jitter clicks as the cables move a bit. I'm wondering if it's normal, or if i simply bought wrong cables. Are there any good ADAT cables one could recommend me ?
I believe this might be the culprit in CPU spikes I'm getting. I first thought it was my CPU, but this one seems to stay at a very decent temprature. The other culprit I can see is the Apollo 8p getting too hot, but I hope this is not the case.
 

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
Wanted to follow up on this one.

I ended up getting a second hand Clarett 8Pre in superb condition and under guarantee. I personnaly can't hear a difference in conversion quality with my 8P, so that's a great point.

I've linked both units with ADAT for both 8 extra Ins and Outs, as I sum everything on my mixer. The Toslink cables I bought however don't seem to hold in tightly in ether ports (on the clarett and the 8p). At times, it seems like the connection is creating small sort of jitter clicks as the cables move a bit. I'm wondering if it's normal, or if i simply bought wrong cables. Are there any good ADAT cables one could recommend me ?
I believe this might be the culprit in CPU spikes I'm getting. I first thought it was my CPU, but this one seems to stay at a very decent temprature. The other culprit I can see is the Apollo 8p getting too hot, but I hope this is not the case.
Not normal. Make sure you don't have tiny tip caps on your ADAT cables.
 

Kcatthedog

Hall of Fame Member
New cables come with a little plastic cover /cap, that goes over the metal part (s) to protect it. They are normally attached by a loop to the actual cable so they are not supposed to get lost.
 

ndrik

Member
They came with the protection obviously.
Going to borrow a pair off a friend today, and I'm ordering a pair of the Amazon basics Toslink cable.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
 

kris.aps

Active Member
I'm still very interested in the Clarett Octopre or the Audient ASP800
I use the Audient with my Silverface Apollo. My ears like it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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