Advice about Guitar amp attenuator like from Weber or Palmer

[RWIL]

Hi,
2 models for which I'm looking for these days:

-Weber's Mass (SPEAKER MOTOR MODEL)
https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/mass.htm

-Palmer's PGA-04 Speaker Simulator
http://www.palmergear.com/pga04.shtml

Anyones know each of them? I'm using a Mesa Express 5:25 and since the \"send\" is already giving interesting result (line level to RME's in), but having the speaker enabled of course, I'm wondering if I could get even better result from the last amp stage and silent DI use.

Thanks,


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Edit (09/30/2007):
I add below different links to products that I found or already mentioned here:

-Dr. Z Amplification's Trainwreck Licensed \"Z Air Brake\"
http://www.drzamps.com/airbrake.html

-Groove Tubes's SEII Speaker Emulator
http://www.groovetubes.com/SEII_Speaker_Emulator_P1604.cfm

-Koch's LB120-II (LB120 discontinued I think)
http://www.koch-amps.com/

-Palmer's PGA-04 Speaker Simulator
http://www.palmergear.com/pga04.shtml

-Magus Innovations, LLC - Different \"Ultimate\" models
http://www.ultimateattenuator.com/

-Motherload
http://www.motherloadusa.com/motherload-load-box-directbox-home.asp

-Marshall's Power Brake
http://www.marshallamps.com/product.asp?productCode=PB100

-Peavey's MSDI
http://www.peavey.com/news/article.cfm/action/view/id/236/20071801.cfm

-SPL's Transducer Model 2601
http://www.soundperformancelab.com/transducer/2601_kurz_E.html

-THD's Hot Plate
http://www.thdelectronics.com/products/hotplate.htm

-Weber's Mass (various models)
https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/mass.htm

 

[Sparky2]

I have the Palmer...I use with a Peavy Bravo and Lexicon LXP-5. For clean sounds the Palmer is pretty bang on. Super clean and faithful to your amps sound. In fact, some may think it is better than mic'ing when it comes to a clean or slightly overdriven sound because you just get from Point A to Point B a LOT faster then screwing with a mic...

For distortion and overdrive, it is also very good but it is critical you have a great sounding ambient effect in order to give the sound depth and dimension. The Palmer can make it sound like you're pushing a cabinet, but you can tell the difference more substantially when comaring to a mic'ed source. The difference is really in the low mids. The LXP-5 is the absolute perfect mate for this because it really is an analog-ish sounding unit that just gives you that ulitmate Lexicon sheen and lushness that will make the direct sound of the Palmer sound 3-D.

I guess you need to evaluate your needs and how much of a guitar purist you are. The Palmer, with the right treatment, can deliver a modern hard rock sound with your Boogie that 99% of population couldn't tell the difference. You're just the 1% that can :lol:

 

[RWIL]

...The Palmer, with the right treatment, can deliver a modern hard rock sound with your Boogie that 99% of population couldn't tell the difference. You're just the 1% that can :lol:

Excellent! 1%, that's within acceptable tolerance !
Thanks for the advice!

RW

 

[Sparky2]

RW,

The key words are \"with the right treatment\"... you really need to play around with this thing when it comes to the hard rock stuff, but it can be done...Get an LXP-5 8)

 

[RWIL]

RW,

The key words are "with the right treatment"... you really need to play around with this thing when it comes to the hard rock stuff, but it can be done...Get an LXP-5 8)

I have the Lexicon MX200! Not too bad for the purpose I hope!

Thanks,
RW

 

[Kev]

I have the Palmer too. I've used it with 3 or 4 different tube heads that I built myself. I've tried many different ways of direct recording and the Palmer is best I've tried yet. I do have the room to mic my cab so I still go that way most of the time.
I have set up a mic on a cab and direct from the Palmer and the results were very close. As Sparky2 said, the low mids are not quite as deep and the overall sound is not as dimensional, but with the right treatment it sounds very good.
When I use the Palmer, I usually use the speaker cab as the load though and take the direct out of the Palmer.

 

[RWIL]

Well for now, after reading here and there (G :| :| gle), I found that the Koch LB120-II seems to be the perfect loadbox to get finally, since the different power attenuation available from 100% (none) to 0%, and + the features of a Palmer, and + the headphone output (nice!).
I rent one today for a month and at first, I'm impressed! So enough time to outline the unit before the decision and even to put the hand on a Palmer and see..., but the 7 output levels are a really cool feature to have...

Thanks,

RW

 

[Sparky2]

I would try the Palmer extensively if I were you...I haven't tried the Koch but I did record a Koch amp that had a speaker sim output and it was OK. Not sure if it is the same thing. But with the Palmer, you get a real good representation of what your amp is putting out. In other words, a truer representation of the source without much coloring. You can color with the Palmer if you want, however...

 

[Sparky2]

Just read some of the reviews about the Koch at harmony central...Sounds like it is a great load box. Has peaked my curiousity...But the one thing that I am wondering is this - for a good overdrive sound, you need to move the speakers. With this thing, aren't you basically driving the nuts out of the output tubes but with a lower volume to the speakers, you'll get less speaker movement and less cabinet inclusion in the sound??

Keep us up to date on this thing RW.. 8)

 

[Eric Dahlberg]

Yes, please keep in touch about the Koch. It seems really great.

 

[Akis]

All the guitars on the tracks you can find on this page are recorded with a Palmer PGA-04:

http://bandmix.co.uk/profile14188.html

 

[Klaus123]

what about the spl transducer?


Greetings

Klaus

 

[RWIL]

...But the one thing that I am wondering is this - for a good overdrive sound, you need to move the speakers. With this thing, aren't you basically driving the nuts out of the output tubes but with a lower volume to the speakers, you'll get less speaker movement and less cabinet inclusion in the sound??

That is. Speakers behavior still one part of the sound that you get being front of your amp/cab and the Koch doesn't have a separate control like the SPL Transducer (link posted from Klaus123). The later seems to push further the speaker emulation having a knob to simulates speaker cone characteristics at different levels! That looks really neet for the SPL's model if that works well.

So, around the attenuation features of the Koch, that still very interesting since that I can use my guitar amp from at least 3 different manners:

-Silent. Direct recording or cans monitoring. Here I found that the headphones out is very cool and gives an interesting perspective of the amp sound. I tried also to tap and record the signal from there. It need to be eq, maybe because the mismatch of the impedance, but it has a slightly different sound vs the DI output. So, an interesting direct recording option.

-The cab/combo having mostly the same SPL (being front).
Having an ideal level in the room, you can use the reduction to push your amp's stages. So a wider tonal possibilities at the nearly same SPL.

-The tone setup of your guitar amp is the one that you really want to get, but at lower speaker level. Here again, since less level from the amp, if the reduced sound still very good, you get a different character and which may give interesting mic recording results (higher gain from the amp recorded at lower level)

Now i try to figure out the DI and direct output sections. If the purpose for the direct output (no sim. voicing) is to feed another guitar amp, it is possible to use them to record clean guitar for further ITB sim processing with your favorite plugs. I think you should forget to use these direct outs to record overdriven signal; the sound is nasty; maybe good to feed a guitar amp, but can't believe that's good to feed a VST sim! Anyway for my own purpose, If I want to record something to feed a VST sim, I think I'll rather use the send out from the Mesa.
More to come around the DI section. That still for me the harder part to outline around these kind of device. Clean so far is really good, smoking sounds seems good either, but the slightly overdrive sound or even clean sound having just a little tube extra harmonics seems to be more sensitive to catch correctly. I got it at a moment :? , so here maybe you have to be aware about the level of the amp's master level stage..., have to play much more around...

 

[Klaus123]

I had them all: the poor Hughes&Kettner Red Box, the so called compensated DI-Outs of valve amps and the Marshall SE-100.
The marshall had the best sound (somebody told me, that they licensed a palmer patent for that unit, I don't know if that's true, but from what I heard I would believe it). How sad that it isn't produced any longer. But silent recording wasn't possible with this unit anyway, just reduced level.
A simple vintage30 speaker in an iso box recorded with microphones is still far better in my opinion if you play crunch sounds a lot like I do. The speaker movement seems to be very important.
My Iso isn't as quiet as I expected so I'm going to give the spl transducer a try immediately when I have the money.
Listen to the demofiles: http://www.tonehunter.de/custommade/transducer.html

Greetings

Klaus

 

[RWIL]

... the so called compensated DI-Outs of valve amps and the Marshall SE-100.
The marshall had the best sound (somebody told me, that they licensed a palmer patent for that unit, I don't know if that's true, but from what I heard I would believe it)....

Don't know either if that's true, but Groove Tubes claim that Marshall have taken out licenses from them with their SEII Speaker Emulator unit!
http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/1604_SE2_manual.pdf

Thanks for the infos,

RW

 

[RWIL]

All the guitars on the tracks you can find on this page are recorded with a Palmer PGA-04:

http://bandmix.co.uk/profile14188.html

Thanks Akis!

RW

 

[Klaus123]

Errrh.... yes, maybe I was told \"...groove tubes patents...\" were used for the Marshall SE100 and I rememberd wrongly \"palmer\". I don't know. Therefore I guess it's true what's stated in the Groove Tubes manual. And that's interesting to know because the Groove Tubes SEII is still being produced, and offers real silent recording and the Marshall isn't/doesn't. But is it better than the palmer? That would be interesting to know, since they are playing in the same price league.

But as I said: Clean and high gain sounds...with some tweaking... ok....but my experience with crunch sounds were rather dissapointing in the end. The spl transducer is my last hope.

Greetings

Klaus

 

[Eric Dahlberg]

The Groove Tubes Speaker Emulator sounded fantastic with the '65 Bassman I used to run it with. You might not describe the sound that amp put out as high gain but it was definitely crunchy, easily in the Marshall JCM800 range, and that combination provided commercial-level quality. I have not found an equal since.

 

[Sparky2]

The Groove Tubes Speaker Emulator sounded fantastic with the '65 Bassman I used to run it with. You might not describe the sound that amp put out as high gain but it was definitely crunchy, easily in the Marshall JCM800 range, and that combination provided commercial-level quality. I have not found an equal since.

When I was a teenager, my dad hot-rodded an early 60's Bassman head...Sounded like Night Ranger..it was freakin killer!! I think what he did was basically did an internal modd which is similiar to what the power soaker's do..I bought a red-knobbed twin which sounded awesome for about a year before something happened to it and my dad reverted the Bassman back to original...Damn that thing was smokin!! :lol:

 

[RWIL]

The Groove Tubes Speaker Emulator sounded fantastic with the '65 Bassman I used to run it with. You might not describe the sound that amp put out as high gain but it was definitely crunchy, easily in the Marshall JCM800 range, and that combination provided commercial-level quality. I have not found an equal since.

Doh! You just add doubt in my head!!!
I would like to get most of them here and to test all side by side! Still that until now the Koch worth his price tag, but I'm not sure yet if I will keep it or not. I got the Mesa Express only 2 weeks ago, so, a lot of learning curve to figure out using both...

RW