Can Anyone Help me obtain MY sound???

[Jlacck]

I wanted to touch up on a recent subject that someone submitted about what strips/ Pre-amps to use for recording synth. I need some help finding gear that can help me obtain the sonic characteristics that I’m looking for in my own sound. I just recently bought, and borrowed a few pre amps to use/test as the front end to my DAW for vocals and synth recording. However, I realize that I’m still not getting the “sound” I want out of all the pre amps in my set up (which include: Digitech VTP-1/ Focusrite Green 2/ HHB Radius 10/ Focusrite Voice Master).


To get to the point, I realize that it is not convenient (and it can be a waste of time) to have to purchase things and borrow units to just find out they don’t have the sound that I’m looking for. What I’d like to know is if anyone out there can point me in the right direction by naming some units (budget and/or high-end) that are known to impart the sonic characteristics that I’m looking for. I’m interested in either channel strips, or combinations of units that seem to provide these sonic characteristics.
(By the way, I work mostly with R&B, Hip-hop, and Pop, but every now and then, I also record and produce some Contemporary Jazz &Gospel, as well as soft rock.)

What I’m looking for:

Since my production is mostly midi based- I’d like to add some character to my recordings that need to include:

* Kicks: Punchy, but Tight on the bottom end but I need some warmth and depth (Analog-like)
* Snares: A crisp, phat “in your face” type of sound. I’m looking for something that add that nice musical “crunch” to the snares. (typical in pop tunes)
* Bass: A like those dark, warm sounding bass tones similar to what you might hear on a Dr. Dre record. (I can usually get tones similar to this on my keyboards but I need something to take it to the next level)
* Vocals: Full, “in your face” warmth that seems “larger than life” but with a bit of an aggressive bite (particularly for rap vocalist) on the high end to help articulate vocal performances. I understand the microphone itself has a lot to do with obtaining this desired sound (I use a CAD E-200 which sounds great on singers but doesn’t offer enough “bite” to suit my taste for rap vocalist). If you guys have any feedback on microphones that I might want to upgrade to, feel free to include that as well.

And finally, I usually track my keyboard sounds as clean as possible since I usually create the character I need within the keyboard itself (stacking sounds etc…). However, I can definitely use a pre amp that can bring out these aforementioned sonic qualities or even make them sound better. I would appreciate any comments or feedback you guys can offer on any units or suggestions that you think can help.

 

[Michael]

It really sounds like you should learn to use compressors and EQ's . These are the tools that are going to get those sonic qualities you seem to be looking for .

 

[Jlacck]

Michael: Thanks for your feedback. I would like to believe that I'm pretty familiar with the control functions of using a compressor and eq considering that I've been producing for quite some years.

While I will acknowledge that my engineering skills are not quite as polished as those who have had YEARS of experience, I believe that I know more than enough to understand the technicalities of engineering and working in a studio.

The reason I'm asking for suggestions on gear that can help me obtain that \"sound\" I'm looking for is because I've worked with experienced engineers in many studios who just couldn't quite get that sound that I was after. I realize that since this is a personal thing (meaning only I know what that sound is in my head), I feel that I would be better off trying to obtain that \"sound\" myself, at least in the tracking stage.

I understand that certain gear is synonymous with having a certain sound signature, but I've never had actual experience of using said gear. So I'm looking for feedback on some of the devices that you guys have used or heard that helps you obtain that sound YOUR looking for. Perhaps some of you may have gear that gives you the sound thats similiar to what I'm after.

The bottom line is, I'm trying to get OUT of that \"project studio\" league, and step to the next league... but I don't know what that league really has to offer in terms of what gear works well for what. Once again, I don't have the funding to go out and buy all kinds of gear just to see what I like, and they're aren't very many rental places around my location that has a wide selection of gear to rent. So, for the most part, I'm resorting to user feedback and those who are familiar with devices that help them get a certain sound they are after.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Eurocide]

The bottom line is, I'm trying to get OUT of that "project studio" league, and step to the next league...

I was searching for that "professional Sound" for 16 years. I calibrated my ears in big studios so I learned to know, how the HUGE sound is achieved.
Today, with digital techniques you get 90% quality for little money.
Each 1% towards the 100% is an extreme exponential curve in spending money into hi-end equipment.
No plugin can be a substitute for a Manley Massive-Passive, etc.
I tried several years to get the "expensive" sound within the computer. Sorry, it works only to the 95% margin.

 

[Michael]

Just out of curiosity the studios you have been around ,have they all been digital ? I say this because some of the attributes you are looking for are qualities found using anolog tape which digital still really hasn't captured just yet . You may have to track analog and trasfer to digital .

 

[Jlacck]

Just out of curiosity the studios you have been around ,have they all been digital ? I say this because some of the attributes you are looking for are qualities found using anolog tape which digital still really hasn't captured just yet . You may have to track analog and trasfer to digital

Most of the other studios I've been to were actually digital studios using analog boards. The two that I frequented the most used a Trident Series console and the other used an Amek Big by Langley. Their recorders however were ADATS because that was the source of the material that I brought in. (I usually track at home and go to the big studios for vocal recording and mix down)

Anyhow, the studio that probably came closest to the sound I wanted in terms of sonic character was the one featuring the Amek console. We didn't really use much outboard gear for our mixes so I'm sure what I was hearing was mostly attributed to the sound of the board.

I never really considered using reel to reel because of all the stories I hear about them being expensive (for the tape, and maintenance not to mention the actual recording units). However, ironically I actually forgot that a lot of major artists are still recording to reel to reel and therefore, that's actually part of the sound that I'm hearing that I seem to like.

Do you think a 1/4\" two-track reel to reel would do the trick (or do I need to step up to the half inches or 2\" tape machines)? I'm thinking about seeing if I can rent a \"two-track\" unit as a test to see how it sounds if I run my tracks individually through that, and then try to line them up in my DAW.

Has any one else tried this?

 

[Michael]

I personally never Did any tape transfers . I think a 2 track could work but I would think it depends on how involved you wanted to get . You could probably pick up a used 8 track recorder at a good price , so if you wanted to do 8 tracks at a time it wouldn't be as much work . Coincidently I just happen to own a Amek Big 28 . It's an awsome board one of my finest acquisitions .

 

[Jlacck]

Michael: I think the Amek Big is an awesome board. I loved it for its punch, warmth and clarity. If the studio I was going to hadn't sold it for another board, I would probably still mix at that studio. At some point in time, that is definitely a board I'd like to own personally. I think the Amek Big console probably got me as close to 90-95% of the sound I wanted. I would assume that last 5 or 10% would've been added during the mastering stage (or if my tracks would've been recorded to analog instead).

In your opinion, are there any outboard gear(s) out there that provide a sonic quality very close or similiar to the sound of the Amek Console? I think if I can find a unit or combination of units that can offer that type of sound quality, I'd be pretty much in the ball park of where I'd like to be sonically with my music.

 

[living sounds]

Jlacck, the key to a great sound are mixing abilities. Learning really how to use the EQ and compressor does the trick.

However, to get more crunch on the Snare, warmth on the Kickdrum and Bass, probably even larger vocals (though I haven't tested that) try a descent tapedeck, and record the tracks hot! I recently got my old tapedeck connected to my converters an did exactely that - it's amazing! You'll probably have to experiment a little, but it definetely pays of.

 

[Demetrious]

All the above will help, but he still needs help with hardware.

I think he was asking for hardware suggestions :wink:

 

[Jlacck]

All the above will help, but he still needs help with hardware.

I think he was asking for hardware suggestions

This is correct. I was looking for hardware solutions that are known to impart sonic characteristics similiar to what I described above. Someone mentioned recording to analog and dumping it to DAW is probably the way to go (which doesn't sound like too bad of an idea, if only I can find a good analog unit that's responsibly priced). I was also wondering if anybody knew of certain pre amps or DI's that are known for having sonic characteristics such as a tight punchy bottom, or an airy but opened top end (don't cha just hate that closed in sound some pre's give you? :wink: )

Anyhow, keep the feedback coming. I definitely appreciate all of you taking the time to help me seek a solution.

 

[Michael]

This is correct. I was looking for hardware solutions that are known to impart sonic characteristics similiar to what I described above.

Unfortunatly this is not a cheap solution . Finding the proper combination for Mics , Preamps , compressors will be different from sound to sound . This is why large studios will always be around they will have racks of gear and many microphones . I personally own a half dozen different mic preamps and a half dozen compressors quite an asortment of mics . There is no one combination that will cover all the attributes you are looking for . And for that matter the combitation for any one particullar attribute changes too , due to the changing sound source .

 

[olafmol]

you could also take a look at the empirical labs fatso unit

Olaf

 

[Jlacck]

Unfortunatly this is not a cheap solution . Finding the proper combination for Mics , Preamps , compressors will be different from sound to sound . This is why large studios will always be around they will have racks of gear and many microphones . I personally own a half dozen different mic preamps and a half dozen compressors quite an asortment of mics . There is no one combination that will cover all the attributes you are looking for . And for that matter the combitation for any one particullar attribute changes too , due to the changing sound source .

Michael: Your comments make a lot sense. Of course what you said might also be viewed as simple logic, but I'm just tired of buying duds!
The fact that there aren't too many local shops around that would let anyone rent or try out the lastest exotic gear also makes it hard to experiment with gear that I might like.

One of the things I tried doing was finding what some of my favorite producers and engineers use. Unfortunately, while a lot of this information is hard to come by, a lot of producers also aren't too keen on giving away their \"secrets\" if they have any. (can't say that I blame them though)

Anyhow, like I've said in an earlier post, the closest I've heard to the sound I like is the Amek Big console. Maybe some outboard gear made by Amek or Neve might work. I've also had a few guys refer me to the API type stuff (including Old School Audio, and Brent Averill).

Anyway, I'd love to get a hold of one of these units to try them out. Anybody here have experience with any of these pre's going into a DAW?


p.s.- olafmol: I'm going to look into the fatso. Maybe I can demo the unit somewhere.

 

[profkojo]

Hi JLack,

I've been producing Hip/R&B/Nu Classic Soul etc for over 10 years in the US and UK and I think I know what sound you're looking for. Realistically, I don't believe that there is any magic box that's gonna make you're trax bang in the way that you might be thinking. The magic is in the people using the tools, not the tools. I've worked in SSL and Neve rooms with top engineers and come out with wak mixes only to do them better myself @ home with Yamaha 03d's and basic home gear. I recently mixed a hip/hop album as a favour for friends (I'm not an engineer) and when they went to get the record mastered the mastering engineer couldn't stop going on about how great the mixes were and was in complete disbelief when I told him that I did them at home with a mackie CR1604 and Cubase VST. This is b4 I even had my UAD card.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can have all the best gear in the world, but if it's not being used in the right way it's gonna count for nothing. For what you wanna do the sound has a lot to do with what's going on b4 the trax are mixed. It has a lot to do with sound selection, production choices, having space in the music and the quality and uniqueness of what the producer is coming with. I've been fortunate enough to see a lot of top level people working first hand and been amazed at how hot some of their trax sound just coming out of the MPC. No EQ, Compression, Reverb. Nothing! Just hot music. There's some technically great hip/hop mixes out there and there's also some technically awful ones but the trax may still bang because of the music that the artist is coming with. You'd be amazed at how much current hip-hop/r&B is mixed \"in the box\" using simply pro tools and plug ins and UAD has made that level of quality accessible but you still have to make it work. Many top producers (in the states spcifically) are themselves very lo-tech. Timbaland does all his beat in an ASR 10 and the Neptunes still sequence on a Korg 01/w which only has an 8 track sequencer. Obviously all these catz use pro tools for tracking etc but the essence of what they're doing is rooted in their creativity.

Of course it's important to choose your gear wisely but there's so much gear and so much info out there that there's only so wrong you can go if you stick with the big names. For me the most important aspect of your sound is you. You can spend thousands on fancy boxes with fancy names and unless you put the right sounds and music through them they can't do very little. Good equipment can augment you're sound but it can't make it for you. In my opinion there's no specific piece of gear that just makes it all happen. You gotta make it work with whatever you have and your ears will always be the best piece of gear you have.

 

[profkojo]

Hi JLack,

I've been producing Hip/R&B/Nu Classic Soul etc for over 10 years in the US and UK and I think I know what sound you're looking for. Realistically, I don't believe that there is any magic box that's gonna make you're trax bang in the way that you might be thinking. The magic is in the people using the tools, not the tools. I've worked in SSL and Neve rooms with top engineers and come out with wak mixes only to do them better myself @ home with Yamaha 03d's and basic home gear. I recently mixed a hip/hop album as a favour for friends (I'm not an engineer) and when they went to get the record mastered the mastering engineer couldn't stop going on about how great the mixes were and was in complete disbelief when I told him that I did them at home with a mackie CR1604 and Cubase VST. This is b4 I even had my UAD card.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can have all the best gear in the world, but if it's not being used in the right way it's gonna count for nothing. For what you wanna do the sound has a lot to do with what's going on b4 the trax are mixed. It has a lot to do with sound selection, production choices, having space in the music and the quality and uniqueness of what the producer is coming with. I've been fortunate enough to see a lot of top level people working first hand and been amazed at how hot some of their trax sound just coming out of the MPC. No EQ, Compression, Reverb. Nothing! Just hot music. There's some technically great hip/hop mixes out there and there's also some technically awful ones but the trax may still bang because of the music that the artist is coming with. You'd be amazed at how much current hip-hop/r&B is mixed \"in the box\" using simply pro tools and plug ins and UAD has made that level of quality accessible but you still have to make it work. Many top producers (in the states spcifically) are themselves very lo-tech. Timbaland does all his beat in an ASR 10 and the Neptunes still sequence on a Korg 01/w which only has an 8 track sequencer. Obviously all these catz use pro tools for tracking etc but the essence of what they're doing is rooted in their creativity.

Of course it's important to choose your gear wisely but there's so much gear and so much info out there that there's only so wrong you can go if you stick with the big names. For me the most important aspect of your sound is you. You can spend thousands on fancy boxes with fancy names and unless you put the right sounds and music through them they can't do very little. Good equipment can augment you're sound but it can't make it for you. In my opinion there's no specific piece of gear that just makes it all happen. You gotta make it work with whatever you have and your ears will always be the best piece of gear you have.

 

[Jlacck]

Profkojo; your post is well said. I don't think anybody can argue with that. I believe that I'm getting MORE than enough out of the gear that I currently use, but I feel that I'm just at the point where I want to take my music (and sound) to the next level.

I am beginning to realize that the upgrade path I am looking for isn't so much for sonic reasons, but artistic reasons. I know that might sound a little confusing, but allow me to better explain:

While I love my DAW and the converters that I use for it, I still hate the sound of \"digital\" (hated it with ADATS, hated it with Pro Tools, and hate it with Nuendo though I think Nuendo sounds better than either). For keyboard and synth type sounds, I can tolerate the \"digital sound\" since I don't do much processing to these type of sounds anyway. But for kick, snares, bass and sometimes vocals, I have to have a certain type of \"vibe\" that I like on those tracks, and I noticed that when I record to digital, my kicks/bass/snares start sounding too transparent. In short, I hate when those particular tracks sound TOO clean or sterile as many people like to describe it.

I tried using some tube pre amps to run my synths and drums through but I didn't like the sound of either amp. Granted, they are \"mid-line\" priced pre amps, but I'm beginning to suspect that tube pre's just aren't what I'm looking for (seems to make my tracks sound too \"rounded and mellow\" *lack of aggression*).

Like I said before, someone mentioned recording to analog and dumping it to DAW since analog is known for imparting the sonic characteristics that I'm looking for. This method may or may not be the answer, but I'm definitely looking forward to trying it and seeing how that works out.

And just for the record, I don't actually have the UAD-1 cards yet but I'm looking to buy one or two very soon. I understand they are known for imparting \"Character\" into your songs. maybe finally buying that UAD-1 card will be the answer.

 

[Rankus]

You should look for two books:

The Mixing Engineers Handbook by Bobby Owinsky

and

Behind the Glass by Howard Massey


These two books contain hundreds of high end studio tricks and tech....

Cheers

 

[Jlacck]

I have the mixing engineer's handbook. I've never heard of \"Behind the Glass\". I'll have to check that out.

 

[profkojo]

Hi Jlacck,

If you want a dirtier more raw sound, how about try using some dirtier, rawer sounds. I know a bunch of catz who want to make urban music and they simply have the wrong sounds. They think it's their gear but it's the sounds they use. A lot of Urban sounds don't sound great in isolation but when you put it all together it works. Most Urban music is made by catz sampling sounds off of vinyl straight into thier drum machines. Where do you get your drum sounds from? Do you use an MPC? It's not the only way but most hip-hop/R&b is sequenced using an Mpc. I sequenced on Cubase since it was on Atari and switched to using an MPC about 5 years ago and I haven't looked back since. Do you use analog synths? A lot of Digital synths just don't cut it when it comes to Hip-hop in specific and R&B as well. People like Dre, Scott Storch, Timbalaand, Neptunes etc use mainly Analogue synths. They have a rawer sound. Do you use live instruments in your productions? Guitars, Basses, Rhodes. Do you quantize everything? You need a live element in the music to make it move. A lot of Hip-hop drums are programmed un-quantized or a lot of the elements are. It's easy to forget that a lot of the music uses samples that are by nature a lot dirtier, looser and are often sampling trax made with dirtier instruments. If you sample a funk track for the mid 70's there's gonna probably be some rhodes, clav, hammond, moog or whatever on there. Digital synths and plug ins can get close (in the right hands) but it's not the same. Sample CD sounds don't cut it. They're usually made by the wrong people and the good people only give th reject sounds. I know because I've done it. I think you might be better served by looking into the sounds that your using in your music. My first few years of producing I'd spend hours in the studio trying to EQ my drums to get \"that\" sound. We'd already be in SSl rooms and the engineer and I would hire in Api's, Pultecs, Manley's and all sorts trying to make the drums bang. They'd get a little better but they still wouldn't be bangin' in the way I felt they should. When I started choosing sounds better and making better beats, suddenly we didn't need so much gear. I'd walk in the studio, plug the MPC in, put the faders up and voila...it would be bangin'.

You might wanna try getting some drums from http://www.hiphopdrums.com or http://www.onestopbeats.com. They all have samples that you can download and are made in the states by Hip-hop heads for Hip-Hop heads usually catering for MPC's, SP1200 etc on zips but I think they do wavs and cd's as well. Check it out. Happy Hunting.