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comparing helios to cambridge

boody

Established Member
I know; it's not fair. But it is very usefull in understanding what the helios does. Cambridge, in my opinion, is a very flexible eq and thus good for immitating other eqs.

setup: identical soundfile, running through helios on 1 track and phase inversed through cambridge on a paralel track. I'm going for the maximum of canceling I can achieve (achieved cancelations where around -40db).

matching passive setting: first thing - turn on high cut (6db, 20khz)and rasing a very broad bell in the mids, only about 0.2 db, gives the biggest cancelation. Tip: if you don't like the high end of cambridge just turn on the high cut. Gives a much more pleasing result when boosting highs. All your vintage eqs do this!

matching bass: turning on the bass without boosting anything needs a low shelf raise from 500hz about 5 db on cambridge to cancel. The curve needs extra adjusting and something happens to the mid. As soon as I start boosting the bass another thing is needed: low-cut on it's lowest settings. Actually cutting the low end with a bell eq cancels better. Low mid responce changes all the time when boosting bass.

Matching mid - the curves are hard to follow with the cambridge and I needed two nodes to get the maximum cancelation. Also; the mid eq changes the high end responce. Center freqs are mostly 1khz higher cambridge.

matching high end: with high cut on a high shelf is needed to match in combintation with a high mid eq to match the curve.

With these settings in mind I matched a couple of helios settings with cambridge, and the result is actually very good. I think Cambridge is a pretty cool eq.... but ofcourse, there is one thing I could not copy: the way helios responds to transients. No matter how close my settings on cambridge were, the helios always sounds a bit more focussed and clear, even though I sometimes got a better eq with the cambridge.

Conclusion: though the eq curves can be matched by cambridge, the helios has one quality that can't be matched: transient response. This response is very noticable in the mids where the ears sensitivity is at its peak and which is crucial for stereo focus, and that's where analog still rules over digital. Helios is the most analog sounding plug I have ever heard and makes me believe that the depth and focus of analog equipment can be matched by plugins.

Now; will I buy it? Hmmm, hard one. I have some nice helios presets for my cambridge now, and next to lack of good analog equipment there's another thing lacking in my setup: beautiful sounding recording space. EMT plate could come in handy... now what is more crucial?

regards
budy
 

Jeraz

Active Member
boody said:
I know; it's not fair. But it is very usefull in understanding what the helios does. Cambridge, in my opinion, is a very flexible eq and thus good for immitating other eqs.

setup: identical soundfile, running through helios on 1 track and phase inversed through cambridge on a paralel track. I'm going for the maximum of canceling I can achieve (achieved cancelations where around -40db).

matching passive setting: first thing - turn on high cut (6db, 20khz)and rasing a very broad bell in the mids, only about 0.2 db, gives the biggest cancelation. Tip: if you don't like the high end of cambridge just turn on the high cut. Gives a much more pleasing result when boosting highs. All your vintage eqs do this!

matching bass: turning on the bass without boosting anything needs a low shelf raise from 500hz about 5 db on cambridge to cancel. The curve needs extra adjusting and something happens to the mid. As soon as I start boosting the bass another thing is needed: low-cut on it's lowest settings. Actually cutting the low end with a bell eq cancels better. Low mid responce changes all the time when boosting bass.

Matching mid - the curves are hard to follow with the cambridge and I needed two nodes to get the maximum cancelation. Also; the mid eq changes the high end responce. Center freqs are mostly 1khz higher cambridge.

matching high end: with high cut on a high shelf is needed to match in combintation with a high mid eq to match the curve.

With these settings in mind I matched a couple of helios settings with cambridge, and the result is actually very good. I think Cambridge is a pretty cool eq.... but ofcourse, there is one thing I could not copy: the way helios responds to transients. No matter how close my settings on cambridge were, the helios always sounds a bit more focussed and clear, even though I sometimes got a better eq with the cambridge.

Conclusion: though the eq curves can be matched by cambridge, the helios has one quality that can't be matched: transient response. This response is very noticable in the mids where the ears sensitivity is at its peak and which is crucial for stereo focus, and that's where analog still rules over digital. Helios is the most analog sounding plug I have ever heard and makes me believe that the depth and focus of analog equipment can be matched by plugins.

Now; will I buy it? Hmmm, hard one. I have some nice helios presets for my cambridge now, and next to lack of good analog equipment there's another thing lacking in my setup: beautiful sounding recording space. EMT plate could come in handy... now what is more crucial?

regards
budy
Great post, and it might be noted, that THIS kind of difference may prove especially enjoyable where otherwise good analog gear and converters are in the recording and monitoring signal chain. In other words, its software that does the hardware justice.

BTW, the analog plug AM*PHIBIA from Sascha of DigitalFishPhones fame and now with Magix is pretty darn analog (Available in Samplitude and now separately)...but that's a different beast...

Still, I agree with you on the Helios...I can almost feel the heat from the hand-soldered components...LOL...
 

Suntower

Established Member
Helios or EMT 140? It's a no-brainer. Get the 'verb. There's NOTHING else like the 140. IMHO it's UAD-1's crowning achievement. I never get tired of it.

But.... I've lusted after that sound for 20 years.

I have been doing a bunch of similar tests. And it's interesting:
1. How similar Helios can be to Neve 1081
2. How close you can get to Helios with Cambridge

I just set the Cambridge freq. to match the Neve or Helios and then twiddled the 'Q' until they sounded the same.

Your comments about transients may be correct and I'll check for that specifically. I called the difference 'graininess' but it may be the same thing.

It may be partly that when you hit the input stage with different amounts of gain, there's a range of 'sponginess' --- how fast it responds to the transient, and how much the peaks get rounded off.

Whatever... that 'graininess' is the one thing Cambridge can't do. How important that is? I dunno.

But whether I'll buy or not is based on one simple thing: How much time will I have to spend on each track twiddling Cambridge, vs. simply plugging in a Neve or Helios and being done with it. It's more about convenience than anything else.

---JC
 

Jeraz

Active Member
Interesting take, JC. I like convenience too...and I don't want to read into your statement or oversimplify it.

To me convenience is supported, in the long run, by that great feeling when something just fits the bill, and sounds great, and I don't have to do anything but subtle adjustments, and even then it is about preference...but convenience by itself, is not my cheif focus. That said, a $200EQ ought to deliver across the board for us—however subjective that evaluation might be. In other words, for $135 or $200 or whatever, it has to deliver for me.

I will put up with a little inconvenience if the value is received for the investment. That said, what's sweeter than easy to acheive great value (unless you are one of those folks who can't feel worthwhile unless they are struggling at something).

I agree with you on the EMT 140, being great, and the right choice here ...though, since I haven't heard ALL the UAD plugs, I can't honestly say it's their crowing Achievement. Still, I love that plug...and though sometimes I sub Samplitude's Variverb, or a convolution when I need a room, I just love that plate.
 

Suntower

Established Member
'Convenience' gets a bad rap.

Say I've got a Marshall amp. And then I've got a 'modelling' gizmo that can sound just like a Marshall---with 10 minutes of twiddling. Guess what? I go for the Marshall every time. By the time I would twiddle 'Brand X', I'd probably have lost my original idea (and enthusiasm.) Instant gratification is important in music. Tedium kills creativity. So an EQ that gives one instant joy is good. For whatever reason, the Helios doesn't make me go 'WOW! I can't believe it's not butter!' But 140 does.

For me: All the other vintage plugs have their place, but 140 is useful pretty much all the time. It's not the only verb one needs, but it's almost always a great sound.

IMO one needs 3 reverbs:
a Plate
a Space modeller (for making people think the sound is coming from a bathroom next door or a wood room or some other specific environment.)
a Lexicon style thing...

Between convolution and UAD-1, I got 1 and 2 covered. Hopefully Santa (or Ed McMahon) will show up at my door some day with a Lexicon 480.

Sorry for rambling. Slow day.

---JC

Jeraz said:
Interesting take, JC. I like convenience too...and I don't want to read into your statement or oversimplify it.

To me convenience is supported, in the long run, by that great feeling when something just fits the bill, and sounds great, and I don't have to do anything but subtle adjustments, and even then it is about preference...but convenience by itself, is not my cheif focus. That said, a $200EQ ought to deliver across the board for us—however subjective that evaluation might be. In other words, for $135 or $200 or whatever, it has to deliver for me.

I will put up with a little inconvenience if the value is received for the investment. That said, what's sweeter than easy to acheive great value (unless you are one of those folks who can't feel worthwhile unless they are struggling at something).

I agree with you on the EMT 140, being great, and the right choice here ...though, since I haven't heard ALL the UAD plugs, I can't honestly say it's their crowing Achievement. Still, I love that plug...and though sometimes I sub Samplitude's Variverb, or a convolution when I need a room, I just love that plate.
 

boody

Established Member
Awkay, two votes for the EMT. Well, I got the lexicon thingy, I have a space modeller.... but I don't have a decent plate :roll:

Convenience might not be the word you're looking for... maybe it's straightforwardness (if that's English)? Music is all about sound; sound is what insprires and sound is what we create... so we want something to give us a sound and be inspired... creating sound is good when you are already inspired, know what you need and how to create it, like with a cambridge...

As Jeraz pointed out; the best way to get a great sound is to record a great sound... but that's where things get a bit difficult: I have no great sounding recording room and not a lot of great pre-amps and mikes, and record to a medium that had no character of it's own (which can be a good thing). So I look for things to improve my sound. The grainyness Suntower mentions is very important to make the instruments seperate and maintain character... but space is everything...

hmmm.. two clicks away of the EMT... gotta run some more tests :?
 

boody

Established Member
and the winner is: EMT :D Had to make a decision because I'm out playing all weekend... no way to tell if I made the right choice untill it's too late and the helios is full price again :roll:

But I know I'll be happy with the EMT, it does sound great. Thanks for the advice,

Budy
 

pbissell

Member
Thanks for the comparison. Only thing I found in my own studies however is that while one can get the same overall results, moving the EQ of the source a few dBs will mean retooling the matching EQ in various ways. I think the Helios is more possible since it has a more limited extreme boost and cut (I would imagine those are the presets you now have) but when I did the same with the Neve 1073 it was harder as the Q is a function of both gain and center frequency (center when dealing with the mids). I haven't seen any documentation for that on the UA website or here but in the midband of the Neve, the higher I went up (360 - 7200Hz) the tighter the Q had to go. Since the Neve is completely variable in gain it is harder to definte where the 'points' are you want to model; every 1dB, 2dB, 3dB? etc
Both the 1073 and the Type 69 are so easy to get a good sound with however. Without your presets for the Cambridge, I would think most users would get a lot more pleasure with the Helios or Neve for general tone shaping stuff.

PS. The 140 rocks....

Paul
 

Paul Woodlock

Established Member
Suntower said:
Helios or EMT 140? It's a no-brainer. Get the 'verb. There's NOTHING else like the 140. IMHO it's UAD-1's crowning achievement. I never get tired of it.
....---JC

There's nothing like the Helios either. Same EQ curve means nothing. :) - You can probably set the same EQ curve on a $100 behringer mixer as you can on a Neve mixer.


Love the Plate 140 as well though of course :)
 

boody

Established Member
pbissell said:
Only thing I found in my own studies however is that while one can get the same overall results, moving the EQ of the source a few dBs will mean retooling the matching EQ in various ways.
Yup, this is very true... it is nice to have some ppresets, but it's not the same thing. The phase cancelation was sometimes quite strong, but I've aways heard the difference when I had Helios on... it just sounds more 'real', even when I had a more slightly suitable curve when adjusting the cambridge on the source. Cambridge is handy, but no Helios...

I will be back at the studio on Tuesday and will play around with my new toy (EMT) and hopefully not beat myself up for not getting the Helios (yet) :wink:
 

boody

Established Member
just a note to say I'm very happy with the EMT. My main problem was warmth and depth, and though I have lexicon reverbs, I don't have a great recording room so I need to create warm space in other ways. The EMT does this in a great way 8) It adds a warm resonance to the instruments which makes them much more alive. It won't replace a great recording room, but it sure is like a warm fire to heat my mixes.

Now I've got seven demo days left to figure out how to recreate that snappy - warm - in your face thing the Helios does... Nothing I have does that except my amps. Colortone doesn't do that, Neve doesn't do that.... :? The closest I got is adding a very small amount of paralel distortion in the midrange.. but that's quite hard to get right and not very efficient.
 
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