Craneborne ADAT as Masterclock

[Hifiveguy]

Hello all,

TLDR Version: anyone ever use the craneborne ADAT as the master clock for a multiple Apollo interface setup, and did it work for you.

For those of you who don't mind soldiering thru the story....

I have two Apollo 8s as well as a twin quad for my interface setup. I use a decent amount of outboard gear when recording and have been using the internal clocking and it's worked quite well. No complaints.

I've recently been using a Phoenix 8 preamp and trying to utilize the multiple outputs it has by sending the unprocessed signal via breakout cable into my Apollos while main output goes to the craneborne and into one of the Apollos via adat cable. The only issue I'm having is that my signal from the ADAT is latent compared to the breakout cable signal. I have to mess around with it more, but I suspect selecting ADAT on the craneborne for the clocking may have been a mistake and I should actually just use a word clock cable. But in reading thru the craneborne manual it suggests using the craneborne as the master clock.....now I'm sure every company thinks you should use their unit as the master clock for the most part, but it did peak my curiosity if anyone here has tried it. Seems like the internal clock with Apollos work great for the most part and the only time I've ever had any issues is when using adat with this craneborne.

Anyways, any ideas, thoughts comments etc would be greatly appreciated.

Rik

 

[chrisso]

Short answer - no.
I don't have 2 x Apollo's and I'm not using a word clock cable.
I am using my Cranborne 500ADAT as the master clock with ONE Apollo (8) and absolutely no issues at 96khz/24 bit.
I've had this set up for a couple of years.
Are you using the latest 500ADAT firmware? Do you have the little switch on the back of your Cranborne set to the sample rate you are using?

 

[Hifiveguy]

Short answer - no.
I don't have 2 x Apollo's and I'm not using a word clock cable.
I am using my Cranborne 500ADAT as the master clock with ONE Apollo (8) and absolutely no issues at 96khz/24 bit.
I've had this set up for a couple of years.
Are you using the latest 500ADAT firmware? Do you have the little switch on the back of your Cranborne set to the sample rate you are using?

Thanks for the reply


I have my sample rate at 48k which matches my Apollos, so sample rate shouldn't be an issue.

Ive now tried both the word clock and the adat and still am getting this delay. Which is irritating since when I'm it arm mode and actually recording everything sounds in time. But when I playback there's a delay on the craneborne tracks. I am using the ADAT output, I wonder if I used the XLR output if it would make a difference? Which would kind of defeats the purpose of the convenience of ADAT but might be worth a shot.

 

[danisalat]

I haven't used the Craborne, but have had 4-5 different setups concerning one or more Apollos and adat units.

I think Cranborne intelligently tells you to use it as the master clock (provided there is a setting in there) because most people don't know what they're doing and most people will use it with an ADAT in only interface (as the twin), or don't know what a BNC cable is.

I'd suggest you use the Apollos as the master and connect the word clock instead of relying on dual ADAT cables. It's my current setup and the most stable.

The Apollo's communicate with your DAW and will change sample rate accordingly for all of the system. The ADAT hardware configuration might result in issues there.

 

[danisalat]

BTW all ADAT has latency. It's normally neglectible even for multimic sources but it won't be phase coherent if that's what you're trying to do with the phoenix

 

[ChrisMilne]

BTW all ADAT has latency. It's normally neglectible even for multimic sources but it won't be phase coherent if that's what you're trying to do with the phoenix

How do you normally deal with the latency? Move the tracks, use a plugin or leave it alone? Is it normally only enough to notice if d you are trying to record the same source with some signal from ADAT and the same source through analog?

 

[flandybob]

The “misalignment” comes from different AD converters. Clocking has nothing to do with it.
Apollo has it’s own AD latency vs. the one from the Cranborn (or any other adat device)

 

[Hifiveguy]

After some troubleshooting I've learned my mistake. I changed the word clock to come from the same Apollo unit that the ADAT is going to. I also made that Apollo unit the "A" unit and made sure it was the unit going into the computer. We are now in sync

 

[Matt Hepworth]

Hello all,

TLDR Version: anyone ever use the craneborne ADAT as the master clock for a multiple Apollo interface setup, and did it work for you.

For those of you who don't mind soldiering thru the story....

I have two Apollo 8s as well as a twin quad for my interface setup. I use a decent amount of outboard gear when recording and have been using the internal clocking and it's worked quite well. No complaints.

I've recently been using a Phoenix 8 preamp and trying to utilize the multiple outputs it has by sending the unprocessed signal via breakout cable into my Apollos while main output goes to the craneborne and into one of the Apollos via adat cable. The only issue I'm having is that my signal from the ADAT is latent compared to the breakout cable signal. I have to mess around with it more, but I suspect selecting ADAT on the craneborne for the clocking may have been a mistake and I should actually just use a word clock cable. But in reading thru the craneborne manual it suggests using the craneborne as the master clock.....now I'm sure every company thinks you should use their unit as the master clock for the most part, but it did peak my curiosity if anyone here has tried it. Seems like the internal clock with Apollos work great for the most part and the only time I've ever had any issues is when using adat with this craneborne.

Anyways, any ideas, thoughts comments etc would be greatly appreciated.

Rik

Rik, so you have two blackface Apollos and which version of the Twin?

Would you be willing to test the converter delay difference on the blackface vs Cranborne and post the result?

Easiest way is to record a split signal to both and just measure how many samples late the Cranborne comes in.

@chrisso
Which Apollo do you have, and would you also be willing to share the offset by samplerate?

 

[chrisso]

I think Cranborne intelligently tells you to use it as the master clock (provided there is a setting in there) because most people don't know what they're doing and most people will use it with an ADAT in only interface (as the twin), or don't know what a BNC cable is.

I don't think so. They may think their clocking is superior to Apollo's. For example, I regularly go between my Apollo headphone out and Cranbourne's and the Cranborne's headphone amp is better. I have my 500ADAT as master clock just using the ADAT cabling and have no audible latency at all.
I have measured it with a short hit recorded direct into Apollo and through the 500 ADAT at the same time. It measures -15ms at 96/24.
I track drums so there needs to be no delay and phasing can also be a major issue.
I find the -15ms inaudible. I often nudge the ADAT tracks forward using Luna's nudge feature. It is usually inaudible the difference between 0ms accurate across my drum tracks and my toms and overheads left at -15ms.
I also use Sound Radix Auto-Align 2. It calculates the various audio delays and corrects for them. It doesn't always sound better. I typically run Auto-Align and decide whether I'm going to keep it or not by listening.

 

[chrisso]

@chrisso
Which Apollo do you have, and would you also be willing to share the offset by samplerate?

I already reported to you a couple of years ago and you put it on your database. It's -15ms recording at 96/24. Not sure exactly which Apollo I have. It's probably a 2020 grey/silver face.

 

[Matt Hepworth]

I already reported to you a couple of years ago and you put it on your database. It's -15ms recording at 96/24. Not sure exactly which Apollo I have. It's probably a 2020 grey/silver face.

Yes, I have your 96kHz report with a blackface Apollo of 15 samples (~0.16ms). Would you be willing to share the offset on either of the other two samplerates (44.1 and 48)? A split signal is the easiest and most accurate way to measure the offset, although my notes say you had good accuracy with using two mics, though that's a much harder way to get sample-level accuracy.

Thanks!

 

[flandybob]

Hey Matt, can you pin the adat latency topic or maybe create a pinned topic with links to your stuff (file with latency per plugins etc.)?

 

[Hifiveguy]

Rik, so you have two blackface Apollos and which version of the Twin?

Would you be willing to test the converter delay difference on the blackface vs Cranborne and post the result?

Easiest way is to record a split signal to both and just measure how many samples late the Cranborne comes in.

@chrisso
Which Apollo do you have, and would you also be willing to share the offset by samplerate?

Im still using thunderbolt 2 Apollos. I have an 8 quad and an 8 duo. My Apollo twin is a quad

I'll be able to check latency sometime next week

 

[Matt Hepworth]

Hey Matt, can you pin the adat latency topic or maybe create a pinned topic with links to your stuff (file with latency per plugins etc.)?

Not quite ready to plublish the data, but I certainly will.

 

[danisalat]

I don't think so. They may think their clocking is superior to Apollo's. For example, I regularly go between my Apollo headphone out and Cranbourne's and the Cranborne's headphone amp is better. I have my 500ADAT as master clock just using the ADAT cabling and have no audible latency at all.
I have measured it with a short hit recorded direct into Apollo and through the 500 ADAT at the same time. It measures -15ms at 96/24.
I track drums so there needs to be no delay and phasing can also be a major issue.
I find the -15ms inaudible. I often nudge the ADAT tracks forward using Luna's nudge feature. It is usually inaudible the difference between 0ms accurate across my drum tracks and my toms and overheads left at -15ms.
I also use Sound Radix Auto-Align 2. It calculates the various audio delays and corrects for them. It doesn't always sound better. I typically run Auto-Align and decide whether I'm going to keep it or not by listening.

That's fair but I personally think it's a better workflow to have the piece connected to the computer as clock master.

I have a X16, a Twin and an Audient ASP880. I use different DAWs and sample rates and even though the audient has the sample rate selection on the front, it's still one extra step and can lead to errors. And I only power up my Audient when I'm tracking drums or full bands, so it doesn't make sense to use it as master WC.

I really just recommend it for workflow, regardless of if it's better clocking or worse, whatever that means

 

[chrisso]

That's fair but I personally think it's a better workflow to have the piece connected to the computer as clock master.

I've been using this set up for about four years, no bugs, no mishaps just quality recordings. Why would I change it? It just works and I can see no benefit in changing.

 

[danisalat]

I've been using this set up for about four years, no bugs, no mishaps just quality recordings. Why would I change it? It just works and I can see no benefit in changing.

I listed the reasons above, but if that is not a benefit for you, then by all means keep working with what works for you. The OP asked so I shared my thoughts.

On a diffferent topic, I have a question about your Auto-Align use. You listed 15ms but I guess you mean 15 samples? I'd find it weird if 15ms didn't make a noticeable difference for some drum mics. I haven't used it in a long time and honestly I'm not bothered by whatever delay my audient is adding, but just finding out the sample delay and moving the mics accordingly seems like a good idea, so i want to double check. I only use it for spot mics and extra rooms, so not anything very phase-important really

 

[mattbroiler]

I was wondering about that too - I think 15 samples is more likely correct than 15 milliseconds
I only just recently did the split signal test so I could measure the difference between Apollo x8 channel inputs and the adat / spdif expander inputs
I found the adat and spdif latency with my devices to be from 20 samples to 100 samples or thereabouts - but not milliseconds
15ms would be very audible
for example at 96K Antelope Orion Studio is 20 samples delay for adat and 69 samples spdif. Going the other direction the Apollo x8 into the Orion Studio is something like 102 samples for adat and 93 for spdif.
I just started using Eventide Precision time align to line up the adat and spdif channels from the Orion with the Apollo channels - assuming I do it correctly my recorded tracks will now be lined up exactly (for the first time...)

Voxengo Latency Delay is free and should work just as well for this purpose - https://www.voxengo.com/product/latencydelay/features/

Don't forget you have to factor in any plugins used during tracking and here is where Mr Hepworth's super handy chart gets used - it tells you the samples delay for all the UAD plugins so there you go. Add 55 samples for most unison preamps, lots of UAD plugins have zero samples latency and therefore are advantageous to use in Console when tracking. I am curious - how do plugins even work with zero samples processing?

Once you have the differences calculated you can set your time align plugin to offset the mic/line and adat and spdif channels as needed and then leave it that way until something changes

 

[chrisso]

I measured the delay before purchasing Auto-Align. Yes, I guess it's -15 samples.
If I'm not using Auto-Align I just nudge the ADAT tracks forward. Of course Auto-Align is supposed to be measuring the distance between mics and their phase relationship. I'm guessing it will detect any delay in the ADAT tracks too.
Sometimes Auto-Align doesn't sound as good to me as the naked audio with the ADAT tracks nudged forward 15 samples.