Gear vs. Experience = ?

[Plec]

I thought I would like to start a discussion on this topic which we touched upon in the "33609, not impressed" thread. This has more and more become a center of interest for me, and it would be nice to let some opinions loose.

We are heading towards a new way of making music and doing production alltogether. Of course, we're already there in a sense, but follow the trends a bit further...

* Record companies are selling less and less records, that is.. people buy less records.
* Record companies pay our fees as producers, mixers, songwriters, arrangers. Less income for the record company means lower budgeting.
* As a result, production quality for the same amount of music diminishes.
* To be able to work on a project today as long as you could "yesterday", means you must use simpler, cheaper tools to stay on budget.

Will this trend of production using cheaper and simpler tools result in fewer record sales?

sometimes reading these boards (gearslutz, in particular) i find counterproductive.... you spend FAR too much time second-guessing your own equipment choices because some "mastering guy" tells you that your plug ins are shit, or that this mic pre is better for acoustic whateverness than that mic pre...

...we should all be overjoyed by the fact that these tools we have in front of us today, whether they are plug ins or boutique hardware.. are AMAZING tools.. that anyone would have killed for 20 years ago....

get back to making and mixing music... what you have is good enough!!

I am very picky about my tools, but i agree we often spend too much time on them, We all have very powerfull and fully capable tools to get a high quality sound whether digital or analog, UAD's or freeware. Far often people do second guess their equipment choices because of what some mastering engineer says, but if you listen to them your arsenal or knowledge will never be good enough, so all you can do is send your cd to them :roll: .. Only thing it boils down to is what your ears say, if your trained-ears likes what they hear then that's all that matters. We do have such great tools that engineers of yesterday would've killed for them.

I do believe in getting tools that are great to your ears and sometimes this is costly sometimes it is'nt, But often we can get too caught up in searching for the Holy Grail and not making music, Often we listen to too much hype about various equipment (Blind tests can be best friend when this happens) and not enough emphasis on being a better performer and gaining great mixing techiques and overall general creativity.Great post, needs to be a sticky on all music forums!

To me, whether a song sells or not is about "making a living"; whether I can make a sound better or worse is about "self-esteem about one's profession".

Both are the same important to me. But we're not talking about "how to make a hit song" here, right? We all know what it's all about. We just came here to profine and polish our knowledge about our profession, the sound quality part, not the music writing part.

To me, our self-esteem to our profession is very important. Or where do we get those over-compressed/over-limited squashed mp3-like wave format noises played back through radios and TVs?

A song can be a hit, but also sound bad. It doesn't have to be one way or the other.

Also, if it really doesn't matter, then we'll all be using our Sound Blaster cards or those built-in AC97 audio interface making our music. We won't even be here, since we wouldn't have bought our UAD-1 cards.

Therefore, it's not "it doesn't matter at all", but "how much it matters".

 

[Plec]

I just love these quotes... brilliant minds writing brilliant things. As Arys says... \"To me, whether a song sells or not is about \"making a living\"; whether I can make a sound better or worse is about \"self-esteem about one's profession\". That pretty much sums it up I think. What I'd like to ask again is.. will your increase in self-esteem from owning better gear and creating \"better\" sound generate more record sales for you and thereby putting more food on the table? Would you be better off sticking to even simpler tools if that didn't affect the outcome of recordsales in any way?

 

[rydan]

Also, the blind test statement is sooo true. Even though I'm a bit of a gearoholic, I have really started to demo stuff thoroughly, and blind test against stuff I already have. Sometimes, you come to surprising conclusions.

Me and a friend of mine decided to do a blind test between two Neumann U87 microphones (both old ones, one black and one \"silver\", and perhaps not that well looked after). Just for the sake of it, we set up a ADK 51 (think it was the Hamburg edition) as well.

Hearing which one was the ADK was pretty easy, but deciding which one of the two U87:s that was the best one was harder. After a few tests with speach and acoustic guitar, we had agreed on which one was the best one, and therefore which one we thought was the \"silver\" one (since that was the U87 we thought had had the best maintenance of the two). So, we had the mikes figured out, pretty close between the U87:s, but not that hard. Or so we thought.

Turned out. The mike we liked the most and thought was the silver U87, was in fact the black one. Oh, and by the way, the one we thought was the ADK was, in fact, the silver U87...

 

[Drammy]

Just to highlight the issue - check this out!

allofmp3.com - A russian website, based in Moscow that legally sells mp3 albums for as little as 2p (£0.02) - you can buy the new Scissor Sisters album on there for £1.08!

Very alarming!


Drammy

 

[rydan]

Well, allofmp3 is, as far as I know \"semi-legal\". I think they are operating under the russian radio laws or something like that. Also, there has been discussions about them having to raise the prices quite a bit due to new copyright laws in russia...

 

[Arys Chien]

Hmmm.... I think I need two votes for this topic. Maybe more, for it's not a black-or-white issue to me.

------

Before talking about \"music making\", let's first talk about \"music listening\". Not about if it's your favorite song or band, but your favorite \"sound\".

If it's the same album, I prefer a good vinyl over a good CD. \"The Darkside of the Moon\", Dire Straits, you name it. I still listen to them almost everyday.

Then, when comparing vocals and instruments recorded onto analog tape v.s. DAW, I really prefer the former. I've A/B tested it in the studio, so it's not just hearsays.

But am I going to trouble myself by recording with an analog 24-track Studer, cutting edits with a razor and bouncing tracks when needed? Can I talk the record company into releasing a few vinyls, knowing that there just might be no one buying them?

No.

Therefore I'm not going to talk like I'm a saint in the quest of the holy grail. I'll keep on working with my DAW and a few outboards (and hoping there will be a nice console someday), for the best of my workflow and creativity flow.

But I still want to look for the best possibility among the \"not-so-good\" environment. That's the least I can do, and the least I SHOULD do, if I'm gonna tell people \"I love a good sound\".

------

Now, about how much I'm going to give.

For our own album, it's \"whatever it takes\". It's my name on the cover of the album, and my name all over the inlay. It's gotta be the best I can.

For clients that are (1) willing to pay more to get a better result or (2) my good friends, I'll see what I can do. Maybe as good as I'll do with my own project.

For a project when:

(1) the singer can't sing
(2) the record company doesn't give me enough time
(3) the singer is not ready when coming into the studio
(4) the A&R people listened to my vocal-up mix and ask for 1dB more on the vocal....
(5) the record company pays very few and asks for very much

That's the time I don't care about using too much Auto-tune or if the eq plug-in has up-sampling algorithm, etc..

BUT, BUT, BUT, there's still a chance that I just want to do my best, and see how good I can do, however much they pay me or prepare themselves.

------

To sum it up, I'm not always a lazy business man, nor always a wayward artist.

 

[BTLG]

I don't know if it's really a matter of record sales vs. gear. That's kind of a weird question. I'm not sure that inexpensive gear has any bearing whatsoever on record sales. The average consumer just doesn't care about those types of details. (hip hop/r&b, which still tops the charts regularly can easily be made on cheap gear).

Declining record sales vs. Production Value is a pretty complex issue when you really break it down.

As far as the trends go (and I've put a decent amount of thought into this and have seen first hand how it affects the recording industry) here's what my perception is based on the nature of my day gig as a studio manager.

- 1999 - 2003 - Record companies horrendously mishandle the downloading/file sharing phenomenon

- 2001 - 2004 - serious decline in record sales, by 2004 Record labels begin to see potential in digital distro (too little too late maybe?) and jump on the bandwagon.

- after the sales decline, you're correct, labels cut budgets. but they don't necessarily cut them at the producer end. from my experience the first place they cut them is at the recording studio end. how do they do this? by giving the producer an all-in deal where they are in control of the budget. What happens? the producer takes his normal fee and skimps on the production cost. why? because the tech is so inexpensively available to get 'good enough' results.


Now, to answer the question, in my situation as a Producer/Engineer, what affects me is the quality of my work, NOT the record sales. I get gigs by soliciting myself via material that I've produced/tracked/mixed. Whether it means getting higher quality tools to make that happen (why hammer a nail with a screw driver? go buy a hammer) or learning how to use the tools I already have is the real question I face regularly.

 

[wishingwell]

I think that good artwork does'nt require any specific gear, yes high-end gear often offer the qualities we want in our music but i come to realize my music projects taste at time of production often differ from mines when i go gear shopping (what i go out and buy perceiving it to be the best is'nt always seen as best by my music). Recently i had a project that simply refused all of my high quality reverbs, it did not want something soft,transparent,high end silky smoothness etc.. it wanted something dirty, rough and somewhat cheap sounding, wich captured better the mood i wanted for the song. I know to get the sound i want and to have uniqueness and true creativity and originality i have to have a open mind to any particular gear whether high-end or low-budget. So if i can afford it and like it i'll buy it but also if it's cheap or free and my ears like it or my project likes it then i'll buy it and use it. Some people think it's all about high-end gear and some people hate to spend any money on their music love, i think both of these are wrong if your striving to be very creative with originality and truly great in this field. As Plec previously stated it's not about this particular gear for this sound always, no gear should have absolute authority over your music, i think you use what the song calls for and what better captures the desired mood of the song , not what a trend calls for, or the industry in general or what one feels a big budget calls for. Million dollar studios don't always make hit records and sometimes the bigger they are the harder they fall, and low-budget studios don't always produce flops sometimes the smaller and liter they are the easier they rise! I've recently started spending more money on things like vocal lessons and practicing harder on my song writing and learning the tools i have, what good is a clean and high-end sound for a whack song? What good is collecting more gear without mastering what one has (there is no magic bullet)? And is'nt it the truly great who set the standards and trends rather then follow them? I think it's important to choose gear according to your ear not name brand,trends, etc.. likewise should a song be made not according to styles or trends (they die out with the times). as for gear it is important to get tools good to ones ear but sometimes the unpopular tool is the better choice and the creativity and skills of the engineer thats good at what they do can really shine threw regardless of tools name brand and unpopularness if the tool fits the circumstance and is used right. So the engineer can make a unpopular tool into a great one (and probably start a new trend ).

 

[Plec]

Mm.. I hear you guys. Isn't that the beautiful mess that we're all in really? Like BTLG says, record sales vs. gear is really a weird question. We all like great sound.. that's what we do of course. But at the same time we all got to make a living out of it. When the quality of gear really doesn't have any influence on record sales... and profits from record sales are continually dropping... why is there any reason for us to go with the high-end stuff (except the fact that we all enjoy really great sound)?

Like BTLG I'm in the studio manager position, so I know the quality and type of gear you have at your disposal directly influences the number of gigs you get. But again... your clients are usually in the same trap as you are.. they enjoy great sound. When the few artists that still have the funds to book themselves in a great facility are gone due to even less profits coming in off of record sales... then what? A record company will argue \"Why spend 50 000$ doing this thing here, when we can pay 10 000$ over there and sell the same amount of records\". Sure, the artist might be disappointed, but if he wants to do that record and can't pay for it himself... well. This situation is becoming more and more commonplace.

When I produce I always keep it ITB until it's mixtime. Just to make transfers simpler and overdubsessions more consistent in the process. Of course I make mixes ITB as I go and when it's time to do the real mix I always have this great mix ITB already using only plugins.. and when listening to the final mixes that has been done analogue with all the good stuff.. I can honestly say that I would be able to live with the differences apparent there, when in reality that would mean I could cut down all my expenses by something like five times and at the same time halve my fees and in the process make four times the money, if I choose to go ITB all the way and get me a smaller place to work.

A collegue of mine started his new production studio a couple of years ago. He went all ITB using a moderate setup of midpriced mic-pres and that's it. This guy has done his share of gold and platinum records so I was like \"are you sure about this\" when he set it all up. Well.. as no surprise.. he keeps his rates low, makes huuuuuge profits on his production and mixing... and everybody loves him.

 

[MASSIVE Mastering]

I'm on the fence -

Yesterday, I did a project that reacted well to a chain of compression costing around $11,000. I also did a project that I used UAD's 33609 plugin ($200 or whatever it was) as the sole source of compression.

I want to use the tool that feels like the \"right\" tool to use, regardless of the cost of the tool. Granted, the majority of the time I'm bound to the hardware. But when the project is asking for the plugs (I use the Precision EQ more often than I ever thought I would), I don't have any problem with them not being costly...

That being said, I certainly see a mish-mash of quality coming out... Some recordings are amazing, others suck horrifically, no matter what the budget seems to be.

 

[dt]

Artists, engineers, producers, musicians, record companies, and the buying public in general, being willing to settle for less quality in order to get \"faster and cheaper\" is what is dragging the artistic industry down, imho.

My preference is to (in no specific order): make clients happier than they expected; and be as creative as I can be in the process; use tools that do what I want and need, whether it be a $50 plugin or a $5000 mic - doesn't matter; do great work; make a very good living doing it. Personally I don't see any reason to settle for only one of the these. I have no interest in propagating the facets of this industry that are built around catering to a rapidly growing fast food mentality. I see this in large production facilities in my area, and I also see how it isn't working well for them.

The only way to change a situation is to set the standard in your sphere of influence, instead of living down to someone else's. I also firmly believe it takes skill to recognize how to improve a less than perfect situation - not just following someone else's \"recipe for success\".

Some people will always hold to the proven \"tried and true\" regardless of the cost, and often at the expense of their own progress; others will push past the limits of reason trying to please anyone they think might hold the keys to fame and fortune, lowering the options and standards for those that will follow; but the wise will not only find a solution to a limitation, but also improve upon it, raising the overall standard in the process.

Define your market rather than letting it define you.

 

[BTLG]

I think it really boils down to what your goals are. Every engineer/producer has to ask themselves some very important questions regarding the level of clientelle they want and the sacrifices they're willing to make depending on that decision.

For instance, I went to a pro studio because I wanted contact with a level of clientelle I wouldn't get in a smaller studio. While I ended up in management and all of my personal clients are independent artists and bands, exposure to that world provides me with a certain business insight that someone coming out of school or just starting their own studio in general may not have. But I made a choice very early on in my professional career (which is still probably younger than most peoples here) to NOT go after the bigger clients via being an assistant engineer. In the short run, I have a lot of hard work ahead of me in terms of promoting and soliciting myself, but in the long run I think I'll end up ahead of the game and have a more rewarding career.

I don't know if the buying public is consciously settling for less quality. Most real engineers and producers (i.e. people that know what they're doing) I know don't either, if that were true I don't think we'd even be having this discussion. I don't agree blaming your audience for taking what's been put in front of them 24/7 on the radio, clubs and emptyV (which believe it or not still IS where at least america hears most of it's music... over... and over... and over again)

 

[svs95]

It's my name on the cover of the album, and my name all over the inlay. It's gotta be the best I can.

As opposed to a certain client of mine to whom I said: "If my name or my company's name appears on this record, or in any way connected with it, I'm going to kill you." :roll: :lol:


svs95

 

[svs95]

I create art, don't need to worry about sales

:lol: Why'd you give us that choice? Hell, 90% of those clicks will just be a face-saver for \"Use cheaper gear, make more money.\" It's really sad to see the \"I create art\" category leading because a) I think it's a lie, and b) I hope it's a lie! :wink:

I think the fact of the matter is most of us have a mix of stuff we're proud to associate with, and stuff we'd die if anybody knew about.

Depending on the project, I may work all night, or for far more hours than I bill, just for the opportunity to stay involved in projects of that high quality and/or commercial potential, or I may do exactly as little as it takes to complete the project.

Here's the deal about the tools. I can get the sound I want with lesser (not cheap) or more expensive tools (I've used both). I'm not going to buy tools all out of proportion to the level of clientele I have. As the quality of my clientele has increased over the years, so has my gear, and it will continue to do so. IMHO, the only way to stay in business is to start small and grow as the business grows. The people I know who blew a huge wad on startup capital before they had a client base to support it, never lasted very long.

So for me, it's a continuum! 1) \"Start with cheaper gear, make more money, 2) Migrate to higher-end gear (with bigger budget projects), feel better about it, make more money, and eventually, 3) Create art, don't worry about sales!

I guess I would add 4) Retire and become an audiophile!

Now that's got to rattle some cages, because it's not what they teach you in business school (although IMHO it ought to be)!


svs95

 

[BTLG]

I disagree with the attitude of using a rock to hammer a nail when there's clearly a better solution in buying a hammer. I feel there is a specific skill set and set of tools for each medium of art, be it recording, music, drawing, painting, writing, film. You simply CANNOT do professional quality work with sub standard tools (ever seen a drawing done with really nice pencils? a paint done with high quality paints? it ain't entirely in the hands of the artist). What you end up with at the end of the day is a kid with an mbox, laptop, and some cheapo condenser thinking he's making records.

That said, something that comes into play is really the quality bar you set for yourself.

I think Stevens got the right idea in buying gear in support of the client base you have, but I also think that there is a level of equipment you need in order to go after a client base.

At the end of the day the talent of the artist drives the car, but if the car is a lemon the art will break down fairly early.

 

[Arys Chien]

I don't live or work outside Taiwan, so I can't say things for where you guys are. The following is what I find here, and may hold true in your places too.

There are two kinds of problems here.

One is the lies from the record companies. They know they are compromising. The boss cut the budget, because people are not buying CDs anymore. Therefore the best the producers can get is a Protools mix while they used to get their songs done with a SSL 9000 or 4000.

They also compromise on many other things.

But they still tell the consumers that the albums are made with the same high level. Or higher, from some bolder mouths.

Therefore, people that don't know, and can't tell, don't know and can't tell that a growing percentage of what comes out of the record industries already can't be call \"pro products\". Some of them are so bad that they are only doing what you and I are doing AT HOME, only that they still do it in that same old professional looking studios.

That leads to the second problem.

Young kids believe they are as good as the professionals.

I'm not saying that we older people never made the same mistakes. On the contrary, I believe most of us have. We believed we were as good until our ears got better and better, and our attitude becomes more and more humble.

Yet the problem gets more serious nowadays. With the degration of quality in some records, and the easier access of tools (cheap hardwares and free cracked softwares), more and more young people think they are just as tood.

Then respect is lost.

When I use a sampled drum library, I know that I'm compromising. I know that if I had the budget and the time, I would find a good drummer, a good engineer and a studio with the room I want. I would spend one whole week's time and budget just to record the perfect drum for one song.

Yet I don't have that kind of time and money. So I use a sampled drum library instead.

The difference is that I know what I'm doing. My \"respect\" for \"pro audio\" is not lost. I know I can do better if allowed, and therefore I won't stop here if I have the chance.

Many young kids \"stopped\". Their hands might still grow with time, but their ears have really stopped.

Gotta work now. Sorry to leave you without a conclusion.

 

[BTLG]

I dunno about kids thinking they're 'better' than the vets.

I haven't met anyone my age (25) or under who thinks he's better than a Ray Bardani, Frank Filipetti, Eliot Scheiner, etc etc. That's just silly. Those guys have YEARS of experience.

Now, do some 'kids' think they are better than people who are older then them? Yes, and in a some of cases they are.

The quality drop in recording (lets not bring music into the discussion yet, just recording) is really stemming from the fact that it's gotten cheap enough that anybody can do it and think they're a pro, which I think is wrong.

then again, I've got a fairly hardline elitist stance on art, artists, and what can be called art.

 

[marQs]

Yet the problem gets more serious nowadays. With the degration of quality in some records, and the easier access of tools (cheap hardwares and free cracked softwares), more and more young people think they are just as tood.

Then respect is lost.

...may they think what they want - surely the more motivated guys won't miss to compare their mixes to the professionally produced stuff they like.
So from this point there might be two obvious ways to go in many cases:
1. trying to get the sound they like and fiddlin' around with it for years 8)
2. pickin' up the phone and ask you or another dedicated engineer for professional production

Cheap gear and (cracked) software still need a person who knows how to use it. When a musician is fine with his homerecording work, let him be... From my point of view, it's not so bad, that a basic set of recording gear is reality for many. Just a few of musicians will ever go an engineer's way - the ones who won't will perhaps come well self-trained to a studio sooner or later when it comes to production.
Also I have a significant number of customers for whom I just mix their selfmade recordings. There's a neccessity for restauration work on some tracks before the mix can start, but they pay for it and I don't have to spend endless hours of getting that one note right. Both can be funny.

 

[Arys Chien]

Looks like things are not that bad as they are here.

But BTLG is only 25? I thought you were over 40. (No offense implied.)

 

[BTLG]

no sir, 25 years old here.

Don't worry, no offense taken!

Matt