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Getting that \"pick\" sound on the acoustic

Das Poop

Member
I'm trying to heavily excentuate the pick sound on a new recording. It's a strummer, and I figure my UAD plugs are up for the task, but so far, I haven't been successful.

The best comparison for what I'm going for is \"Desire\" era Dylan or any Cat Stevens. On these records, the acoustic guitar almost works more as a rhythmic instrument in that you heavily hear the pick during the struming and not much fullness from the guitars. This is hard to describe, but if you listen to these examples, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Any time I try this by sweeping an EQ (have tried with both the Cambridge and the 88RS), I seem to be able to find an area which a boost helps, but if I boost too much it starts sounding much more harsh than these records. They seem to magically get that pick sound but with a certain \"softness\" to the sound.

Likewise, if I do a small boost but then do drastic cuts in the mids, it just starts sounding thin.

Any ideas of how to achieve this type of acoustic guitar sound?
 

Macc

Established Member
Personally, as a quick throwaway suggestion, and depending on the particular part being played;

LA2A with the right setting can really accentuate that initial part of the signal. The right eq to give a little more definition and then LA2A doing only about 1-2dB max could be the job. It can really can be a 'punch machine' that thing :D

Again, it depends on the part being played - too busy and/or dynamic and it probably won't work, but it could well be the ticket :)
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
If I were you, I'd fix this in the tracking, not with plug-ins. Take a second small diaphragm mic, position it by the lower bout and point it directly at the picking hand. Better still, double track the part and use an electric guitar on the second pass with a mic pointed towards the picking hand (positioning doesn't matter with an electric guitar since there is no sound hole to avoid). When you mic an electric this way, the *only* thing you'll hear is the pick sound.

Remember that Transient Designers didn't exist in the \"Desire\" days!
 

Das Poop

Member
Macc said:
Personally, as a quick throwaway suggestion, and depending on the particular part being played;

LA2A with the right setting can really accentuate that initial part of the signal. The right eq to give a little more definition and then LA2A doing only about 1-2dB max could be the job. It can really can be a 'punch machine' that thing :D

Again, it depends on the part being played - too busy and/or dynamic and it probably won't work, but it could well be the ticket :)
I tried the LA2A after the 88RS and it's an improvement. It's still not completely there but closer...would you suggest to have it set to limit or compress?
 

Macc

Established Member
Dunno... Have a look and see :D

I did think, with the mention of transient designers, that the ideal tool for this job would be Voxengo's Transmodder. It's a dynamic eq/transient designer.

What that means in English is that you tell it to listen to a certain frequency range, and then tell it to turn another frequency range up or down when it hears a transient.

So you could set it to detect the pick range, set it so it only triggers on the picks you want, and then set it so that it only enhances/accentuates the pick part. It is 100% the plugin I would use in this case :yes:

Perhaps followed by LA2A :D
 

tkingen

Active Member
It seems like guitar technique would be the first thing. Strumming closer to the bridge will have sharper transients and strumming closer to the fretboard will result in softer transients. Move your hand to find the possibilities in between.

Then, mic technique. Move the mic around to find where it picks up what you want to hear.

After that, compression and/or eq if needed.

Search out some dvd's of Dylan or Cat Stevens playing live or in the studio. There's some great Dylan stuff available - don't know about Cat Stevens. Watch their strumming technique and analyze it.

Thinking about cause and effect will give you what you want.
 

lhama

Active Member
...some random ideas...

try to mic the 12th fret, as well as the soundhole. mixing these signals gives a different sound than just the ordinary soundhole.

...Check out the fairchild demo.... It's a great sound. I imagine that a great combo would be fairchild and Helios for this kind of sound....

...maybe some kind of parallel proccesing.
 

Akis

Sadly, left this world before his time.
Moderator
Eric Dahlberg said:
If I were you, I'd fix this in the tracking, not with plug-ins. Take a second small diaphragm mic, position it by the lower bout and point it directly at the picking hand. Better still, double track the part and use an electric guitar on the second pass with a mic pointed towards the picking hand (positioning doesn't matter with an electric guitar since there is no sound hole to avoid). When you mic an electric this way, the *only* thing you'll hear is the pick sound.

Remember that Transient Designers didn't exist in the "Desire" days!
I'm with Eric on this one - it's all in the tracking stage. I had gotten a 'great' pick/strumming sound by pointing a Calrec 1050C towards the end of the fretboard of my Martin D28, about 6-8 inches away. I had even gone to the extent that I chose the pick with which my friend would play - a soft, thin one, probably Dunlop. No EQ, compressor or enhancer will give you that, in my opinion.

Like Eric said, transient designers didn't exist back then.
 

diggo

Member
Akis said:
Eric Dahlberg said:
If I were you, I'd fix this in the tracking, not with plug-ins.
Yep. Not only with mic technique, but even more with playing technique.
The guitar needs to be played very gently, with the right plectrum.

Also bear in mind the very common use of the Nashville tuning, which really helps when using acoustic guitar essentially as a tool to support percussion.

Google "nashville tuning"

Sean
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
Akis said:
I had even gone to the extent that I chose the pick with which my friend would play - a soft, thin one, probably Dunlop.
Right, this is an excellent point. There's a super thin nylon one that accentuates the pick sound and has the added bonus of keeping pick attack and loudness extra consistent. Plus, it's a really good practice tool. A friend of mine used these picks exclusively when we were growing up and they resulted in him developing the fastest strumming technique I've seen outside of flamenco.
 

DAWgEAR

Active Member
Something to try:

Invert or turn the pick around so that (assuming a triangular shaped pick) the wider end is toward the strings and the pointy side is facing the palm of your hand. Basically, hold the pick upside down. The flesh from the thumb and first finger will be close to the wide edge.

Works best with a smooth and hard pick with an \"edge\" (sharp bevel as opposed to rounded). I use Dunlop Big Stubby 3mm or Dunlop 208. Experiment.

It's a nice \"hi-fi\" acoustic sound without a lot of midrange.

(Works with electrics too!)

It may not be what you are after, but give it a try.
 

Dan Duskin

Established Member
Different picks give different kinds of \"pick click\" sound. I find that thin picks give a lot of click, but the click sounds plastic-like. Thicker picks have a better click sound, but isn't always as loud. Stone or metal picks give lots of click, and they also brighten the tone of the guitar. But, more than anything else, it's technique!
 
Part of the Cat Stevens sound lies in old \"plasticky\" Ovation guitars, as well. If you're trying to focus on the rhythmic pick part of the sound, you'll be starting a lot closer with one of those.

And people are saying to be gentle with the eq and compression, which is right almost all of the time, but compression is a big part of the early Cat Stevens sound as well. Those guitars are crushed. With what, I don't know, but they're not your typical open acoustic tracks at all.
 

Dan Duskin

Established Member
Chi-Squared Mastering said:
And people are saying to be gentle with the eq and compression, which is right almost all of the time, but compression is a big part of the early Cat Stevens sound as well. Those guitars are crushed. With what, I don't know, but they're not your typical open acoustic tracks at all.
I suppose a semi-slow attack (about 15ms) and semi-fast release (about 50ms) would help push the level of the guitar down directly after each pick sound comes through... then apply make-up gain.
 

diggo

Member
Dan Duskin said:
[quote="Chi-Squared Mastering":dixwptyq]And people are saying to be gentle with the eq and compression, which is right almost all of the time, but compression is a big part of the early Cat Stevens sound as well. Those guitars are crushed. With what, I don't know, but they're not your typical open acoustic tracks at all.
I suppose a semi-slow attack (about 15ms) and semi-fast release (about 50ms) would help push the level of the guitar down directly after each pick sound comes through... then apply make-up gain.[/quote:dixwptyq]

They arent crushed. Heavy compression RUINS acoustic guitars. The sound is all there _before_ the mic. The same is true (believe it or not) when examining John Entwistle's technique. His bass sounds huge, but he played VERY lightly with his right hand. And that is how you get those great acoustic guitar sounds that the best players and engineers know how to obtain - very good right hand technique.

1. Use a very good guitar which suits the style you are recording (most important!)
2. Choose the right strings and choose the right age strings (new strings dont always give the best results, depending on the musical style)
3. Play gently, even on vigorous songs. It is amazing how a light touch can still sound very energetic and dynamic. Acoustic guitars and acoustic guitar strings give the best recorded tone when played with a deft touch.

If you get the above three points right, everything else is easy.

Ribbon mics can work nicely on acoustic guitars...

Sean
 
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