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Good Snare Sound

azulay

Member
Well, I'm pretty fond with how I manage to capture drums right now.
But the one thing that doesn't fall into place is the centerpiece - snare.

Tried loads of different mics, from AKG condensers to Sennheiser 421
then coming back to the 57. Snare just sounds... well... not so good.
Doesn't sound bad... but, lacks something.

I heard the Bob Clearmountain drum samples the other day, and
well, i'm not naive, i'm sure they eq'd the shit of out the recordings,
and probably it ain't the snare track by itself, but... wow! just sounds
amazing.

Any tips? Any help?
 

Plec

Venerated Member
Yes the Clearmountain samples sound great, and there's a very simple reason for that. It's all isolated sounds. Recording a live drumkit is very much like mastering, you can't get anything for nothing. If you do one thing, something else is going to suffer from it.

I've done a lot of drum production over the years and managed to make pretty much every mistake in the book. So I know from a lot of experience with different rooms, drummers, drumkits, mics etc.. what it is that make the big differences in doing drums. You can NOT compare a live played drumkit with samples like Clearmountain because that's not how a drumkit works.

I can pretty much tell you that you're not doing anything wrong at all.. it's just that what you're doing is capturing something very natural, where sample libraries.. especially the ones that sound GREAT have very few natural elements to them.
 

cAPSLOCK

Active Member
Well, and every engineer (whether they admit it or not) listened to the Clearmountain samples and said MAN I WANT THAT SNARE SOUND!!!! I think Plec makes a perfect point. But there are other things to consider.

One part of it is the old saw kind of thing that smartasses like me like to chime in with when someone asks a practical question. It makes us feel smart even if we aren't. ;)

Problem is, it's true.

Half of the sound is the snare drum. Another half is the player. Whatever happens above that is the engineer. ;) (OK maybe it's 48/48/4)

For me, the lights went on when I had this super heavy duty drummer in my studio. Watch him here (I have posted this before, and don't mean to be spamming with it). http://noisevault.com/studio/dan.html

He made me look like I know what I am doing by being a badass. Thanks Dan! ;)

As to my four percent, and this recording was sort of in the Clearmountain zone, I think the trick is EQ that livens up the natural body of the upper mids, and a high shelf. Then a compressor with a slow enough attack to let the crack through. The 1176 is good, and the EX-1 may even be better.

Not much, I know... but like I said, it was 4%!

cAPS
 

azulay

Member
thanks guys,
you sort of calmed me down with your replies.

I just recorded a Great sounding snare the other day
and surprisingly enough I got an amazing sounding snare recording...

And while we're at it... what gives with the EX-1 compressor?
it acts so darn weird...
 

Sonic

Active Member
cAPSLOCK, great drum sound!
What preamp and the mics did you use for that snare?
 

cAPSLOCK

Active Member
It was a SM57 on top, -only-, at the edge pointed towards the center. The preamp was either on a TAC Bullet (80s broadcast board, nice pres, horrible pots) or a Mytek MPX-4A. Most likely the Bullet. The overheads were KM184s X/Y, high, and on the Bullet.

But it really was his drum, tuning, and the way he hit it that made it sound good. But THANKS!
 

BTLG

Established Member
Also, never underestimate good overhead/FOK (front of kit) mic placement. get the drum sound with those and use the close mics for smack. you'll be amazed as you watch your mic count for drums go down drastically.
 

boody

Established Member
a good snare sound has punch in the lows (around 200hz) enough presence (around 8khz) and a nice snap (anything between 750hz-2,5khz). The depth and isolation of the snare will be dramaticly influenced by the placement of other mics, especialy overheads and hihatt mic. To support the snare there is a nice little trick shown at ua's site demonstrating the neve eq: the stool mic. I tried this recently and it makes all the difference, be it for kick or for snare!

cheers
Budy
 

Suntower

Established Member
At the risk of sounding -whatever-, I think 'good' is subject to the age in which one lives. The CapsLock video definitely has the sound that is au courant.

What kills me is that I can't get the 70's sound of Bill Bruford and Michael Giles (1st 3 King Crimson records) out of my head. It's totally different---more like a parade drum than anything today.)

In fact, I think it may have something to do with marching band music. Seriously. Marching bands used to feature very low tuned snares. Really big cannon-fire sounding.

Now, they are all super-high tuned----I guess to cut through the more elaborate numbers. I dunno if it's just coincidence, but that change seems to be exactly what has happened in pop/rock drumming.

---JC
 

BTLG

Established Member
Snare really isn't an instrument to be solely close mic'd.

Really take time with your overhead placements and you'll be surprised how much you WON'T use the close mics.

At this point I'll rarely mic the toms and hat since I can get all of it from 3 spaced mics. And when you go to mix, you'll find having less mics will mean you have less problems.
 

cAPSLOCK

Active Member
I agree... overheads are most important. Close mic on snare is there for body.

JC, I think a lot of the snare sound you are speaking of is achieved with fairly agressive tunings with muffler on (something drums dont tend to even HAVE anymore) on a drum like a ludwig arcolite with lots and lots of tape on it.

Of course you have two pretty clean pristine hits right at the beginning of \"The Court of the Crimson King\" that you could plug into Drumagog, or Aptriggah which is what I own. Still drum replacement isn't quite the same... But maybe better than nothing!

http://noisevault.com/temp/crimsonsnare.wav
 

Suntower

Established Member
---You, cAPSter. That was a really great idea. No, not that one can take a single Michael Giles hit and create a usable lib <lol>. But bringing that recording into Wavelab and analyzing it in depth has been a real eye-opener in figuring out how to re-create.

Also, it's so much fun. Man -----what----- a creative drummer!

THANKS!

---JC


cAPSLOCK said:
I agree... overheads are most important. Close mic on snare is there for body.

JC, I think a lot of the snare sound you are speaking of is achieved with fairly agressive tunings with muffler on (something drums dont tend to even HAVE anymore) on a drum like a ludwig arcolite with lots and lots of tape on it.

Of course you have two pretty clean pristine hits right at the beginning of "The Court of the Crimson King" that you could plug into Drumagog, or Aptriggah which is what I own. Still drum replacement isn't quite the same... But maybe better than nothing!

http://noisevault.com/temp/crimsonsnare.wav
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
With the right drummer/kit/room, a pair of omni overheads & a kick mic can be the perfect thing. For individual drum miking, I really prefer ribbon mics on snares these days, with the NOS R2 being one of the best snare mics I've used.

btw, the 33609 does a lot to get that '70's kit sound.
 

imdrecordings

Venerated Member
What about a good snare? Rent A Black Beauty... or something. Find a good room. Snare sound is easy when you don't have to deal with the whole kit. I've had great luck wih concentrating on snare sound through the overheads and throwing a MD-421 & 1272 on close snare. Close mics just add punch. !!Overheads for your snare sound!!..Oya.. good sounding snare helps, too. Getting good sounds out of other drums will free up the snare, as well. Gate the toms or cut'm up. Try a kick trigger. I tape a cheap trigger, near the beaters hit point and run straight in with a D.I,using Drumagog to replace the trigger. Throwing a (dare I say it) Techno kick sample ( or what ever suites), under the miked kick works wonders and keeps things consistent. I found getting a good snare sound to be easy.... now keeping it is something else... not letting the other mics cloud the picture. That's why getting your snare through Overheads is best, IMHO. Glyn Johns Technique is a great tool to have and grow from. Start with three and go from there. I've miked kit's with one mic and had people ask me how I got that \"Snare\" sound... ha! With proper micing, you can get a great drum sound in any room... and don't forget to tune that sh*t!! :p

Just the other day, a buddy of mine was recording a band (that I was supposed to record :x f'n under bid ) and he used !!14 mics!! on the drum set. Double miking, top and bottom, every drum! I'm thinking.. what an idiot. Here this band is paying a bunch of money and he's doing sh*t like this. The band was 2-bass guitars and drumer, alla Jesus Lizardy. Drummer wasn't playing anything fancy and only really played his Kick, Snare, Hi-Hat & ride... a floortom hit every now and again. BUT 14 MICS? AH! What a mess.:|
Anyway, sure enough it sounds strange and ~phasey~... who would have guessed? Now, every time I see either the band or the engineer, I have to remember to be nice. I want to strangle the engineer for doing such an idiotic thing. Fundementals people... lets not forget them.. Stop going crazy with mics and placement. Do that on your own time. Sweet. Sorry for the rant. 8)
 

imdrecordings

Venerated Member
azulay said:
Well, I'm pretty fond with how I manage to capture drums right now.
But the one thing that doesn't fall into place is the centerpiece - snare.

Tried loads of different mics, from AKG condensers to Sennheiser 421
then coming back to the 57. Snare just sounds... well... not so good.
Doesn't sound bad... but, lacks something.

I heard the Bob Clearmountain drum samples the other day, and
well, i'm not naive, i'm sure they eq'd the shit of out the recordings,
and probably it ain't the snare track by itself, but... wow! just sounds
amazing.

Any tips? Any help?
Ok.. sorry, but decided to read the initial post after writing a rant. My bad.

I have the perfect solution to your problem. Even though you may have tried this. Here goes:

Start acoustically. Build the kit around the snare. A snare should sound good on its own. But for safe keeping, attach the snare, you find the best, to the stand. Walk around room with it and the drum throne, trying it out in different spots in your room. Set up your Kick. Set up your mics (Overheads). Adjust and tune the snare to sound at it's finest and dampen or tune the kick to work with the snare and not get in it's way or draw to much attention away from it. Unless that's what you're going for. Cool? Next add the appropriate cymbals, making sure they are not to thick or to big for recording. One by one. Barrow some from friends or buy a bunch.. maybe have the band rent them. Loud cymbals are a pain in the arse to try and deal with. To little cymbal in the mix? Snare to loud? AWESOME! Compress the hell out of it! Next add the Toms and consider a gate. Pretty simple. Then add the other drums around the snare sound. Adjusting each drum to fit. I'd even consider try different heads. Drummers will always play better, when there kit sounds good in the room. AND TUNE< TUNE< TUNE. A great drumer once told me. "You don't tune drums to themselves, you tune them to the room." Makes sense to me. :)

.. and last...
A key thing to remember when placing overheads. (because that's where we're getting our killer Snare sound) is ~PHASE~ Study the Glyn Johns tech. It opened my ears up to so many things, but most importantly ~PHASE~. You'll want equal distances from the snare, for each mic. I'm not going to go into detail, you can research that on your own. I'm not saying this is the best way to mic a kit, but IMHO, is a must to know. But the best way to check Phase is to hard pan the Overheads hard left and hard right, put on a set of cans, *CRANK IT*, walk out the drum kit and start subtly moving mics (were talking fractions of an inch here) until the image is centered and there are no strange phasing anomalies going on..Mark it! ( you don't want your cymbals sounding like your pumping them through a MXR Phase 90 pedal... unless that's what your going for.. ha!). Then add the other drums and close mics.. I bought one of those Auralex Producer packs. Comes with a bunch of little square pieces of foam that go right behind the mic's screen. They do a great job at isolating the close mics from cymbals and snare bleed..

Here's me yelling: "HEY!! HI-HAT!! GET THE HELL OUT OF MY SNARE MIC!!!" ha.. hope this helps.
and when all else fails.. hmmm.. I don't know. Just don't be a quiter. NObody like a Quiter.

You don't have to do this step by step.. this is just one of the easiest/fastest ways for me. Good luck!

Scott
 

redcatstudios

New Member
Phasing

How much effect with different lengths of microphone lead have on phasing when recording drums ? Will an extra metre in length cause phasing ?

It is wise to visually move all your waveforms so the start of the waves are all in the same position.
 

BTLG

Established Member
Answer 1 - if you're asking about the cabling, the answer is no.

Answer 2 - only if there is a serious problem. Remember that part of placing a mic at a certain distance is to capture the sound from the distance. moving it in time with a close mic is silly when looked from that point of view.

If you're concerned with phase, try this -

Place your overheads and listen to them in mono out of 1 speaker ONLY. If it's out of phase, move the mics until they're in phase.


Also, figure out what you want out of a mic BEFORE you place it! are you looking for body? transients? do you want more snare in your overhead than cymbals? is there too much hat in the overhead in comparison to the snare?
 
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