How do you hear things?

[imdrecordings]

I noticed, that I don't hear things that are \"Missing\". hmmm
What I mean is, I recognize \"offending\" frequencies first and usually always do. Until the end of the mix.
Intuitively.
Weird. :|
Consequently, I never find myself boosting EQ.
By instinct, I start pulling out frequencies. Until the mix harmoniously GELS.
Then I start in on the Dynamics!
What do you hear or find yourself zeroing in on?

 

[Plec]

GREAT thread IMD!

I know exactly what you mean. I'm also a sucker for hearing all that offending stuff, but the things that are missing was usually something that I didn't spot until I heard it next to something else that I thought sounded good. My explanation for that is that when you focus on all offending things you usually don't listen to the thing as a whole and so your ears just adjust themselves to what you are working on as sounding totally balanced.

What I did to get out of that rut is that when working on sounds I just threw up a channelstrip (88RS) and just tried boosting the different bands at their set frequencies to hear if I get a musical improvement from any of them.. and if I do (usually), I just fine tune that/those bands with EQ/Q/Gain until I think it sounds optimal. Basically just accept the fact that at this point in time, you do not know what you're doing in terms of the whole thing so just start trying things like an amateur, but still know what you're doing.

Another great thing I found is that to first get one element of the mix sound exactly as I want it to sound... even comparing to other records. Just really get THAT one element in the zone, and that will then act as your reference for everything else. So once you feel lost, working on some other sound... you can always go and check how it sounds relative to the other sound that you KNOW sounds like you want it to and make adjustements accordingly.

 

[imdrecordings]

Plec

What I did to get out of that rut

Who said I was in a rut!!! :lol:
This has been working for me.
ha!
My theory behind this is:
1. The music is well balanced and palatable
2. The band comes in and gives me suggestion, because they hear the missing stuff. It's up to them to do that. IMO, It's their music.
If I start to add what's missing, things kind of start to sound too one dimensional. That's my bad.
3. The arrangement can speak for it's self.

Good thinking Plec... So you tweak like a mad man at the start, now?
I'm from the school of, \"if it ain't their, it ain't ever going to be their\".
But that doesn't mean I don't try. Sh*t you have to have some and creativity.
I've never been lucky tweaking an EQ and finding nirvana.
Unless the band say... HAVE AT IT!! (never happened before)
New habits and techniques are always welcome, though.

Of course as I progress, I'm sure my habits will change.
At least I hope so. :wink:
Thanks and give me more! Plec... ha! I love your ideas

To be more on point... What I was trying to say, by \"missing\" is I never really say to myself \"This needs more high-end.\" I'm never really asking for it. Maybe I am, indirectly.
I usually hear something wrong in the low or low mid.....
Enough about me... more more

 

[boody]

after hearing your song in the song section it sounds like you put real effort in the actual recording. If you know what you're after and capture that with the recordings the obvious thing to do next is cut stuff that is too much or unwanted.

I mix a lot of turntablist stuff, so I have to think in another way. By default nothing fits. I listen to the whole arrangement and try to picture how I want things to sound and check that with the composer. Then I start working on individual tracks and shape them to the sound I have in my head. Often it means I will boost the freqs I want to be dominant and then cut the stuff I don't want. Sometimes I will use a compressor and see if it changes the eq enough for my wishes. Problematic sounds will get cut first before anything.

I'm used to create space and depth because I don't have the means to put it in the recordings, so my focus is on adding things that aren't really there :roll:

cheers
Budy

 

[Plec]

Good thinking Plec... So you tweak like a mad man at the start, now?
I'm from the school of, \"if it ain't their, it ain't ever going to be their\".

Well, I think it's just a way for your musical side to take over for a while you know. I like to bombard myself with a new perspective after I've zoomed in on something for a while. It's really refreshing to open up the 88RS or Waves SSL which have four bands set at strategic frequencies from the get-go, spanning the entire spectrum and then just tweak them like a mad-man.

I think that's one of the reasons people in general get great mixes faster initially on a console since it's all laid out and you just get on there and you tweak until everything sounds good without distracting yourself too much with things that don't have anything to do with the music itself. When doing the same thing ITB you're looking for the right channel on screen, you have all these meters going, you're looking at values here & there... you're distracting yourself with technical information that you actually don't need for the task at hand. It's actually activating other parts of the brain, so when you're thinking technically you take focus away form the part of your brain that handles music. So I think it's very important to let that go for a while and let your intuition take over.

 

[BTLG]

I'll generally try to get where I want in tracking, which can be a little hard unless you're doing everything at once. Who knows where the songs going to go?

As I've gotten more experience, I'm learning how much less needs to be done a lot of the time. I'm with Scott - if it ain't there, no amount of EQ or compression can ever put it there. I'll usually try to get the mix happening with the balances before really starting to screw with some crazy eq'ing.

My problem area is in bass. anyone got any helpful ideas?

Sorry so scatterbrained - I had to go regulate on the neighbors this morning about the party they had last night.

 

[imdrecordings]

Matt
Here's a quick trick. I don't have much time.
Kick & Bass: (or drums and bass)
Set your levels for the Kick while listening to the bulk of the mix. Or maybe just the Drums.
Check to see how the kick sounds in relation to the entire kit/soloed or Mix.
Change what needs changing.
Next, Solo the Kick (or the whole kit) and bring in the Bass Guitar (or whatever instrument you are using for Bass)
Bring up the level of the Bass until it's just louder than the Kick. Almost as if the Kick disappears.
Now, start taking (around) 300hz out of the bass until the kick pops through and sits with the bass. I use the URS API (switched to bell instead of shelf) for this, but I guess any EQ will work.
Now, is when you might have to throw in a compressor to even out the low end of the bass. Or a gentle Limiter on the Kick, for the occasional over or loud hit. (I rarely have to compress a kick)
Of course, fine tune from there.
I used to be into using High-pass filters everywhere. Fuk it... sometimes you can rob yourself of some wonderful low, doing that. Save the high pass for the end of your mix. Like, come back and HP, when you are all most finished. Just on the stuff that needs it. Almost like cleaning up before printing, kind of thing. I'm sure you're aware that setting a high-pass at no more than 45hz, wont change the sound and is a safe bit in insuring you wont have anything unnecessary going on down there.
All these POP guys High-passing their guitars to like 300hz, lately. Sucks!

Thanks Budy... It's it's cool to see such a different perspective than mine.

 

[Plec]

Also, don't forget the \"drums n bass - subgroup compression\" or the Kick sidechaining the bass trick. Can't do any groove driven mix without side-chaining the bass to the kickdrum, even one db will make the groove sit so much better!

 

[imdrecordings]

Budy, you spurred a thought...
I've been working with a band that chooses to do everything in overdubs.
Drums to a click, guitars, bass keys, vox, etc all at different times.
Come mix time, things aren't gelling. I've brought in a friend to replay some of the parts as well as I have redone some parts. The band will never know.
They seem to always seem to think I'm performing some kind of mix magic.
Bad? I know... haha! Only on stuff that flat out doesn't work. There are some members in this band, which have no idea what they are doing.
Besides, they came to me for my musicality.
Here is the thing. It sounds so unnatural. I have this problem with trying to make things sound like they belong together or natural. Should I not approach a project such as this, from a \"Natural\" perspective?
Maybe this album should sound completely unnatural and weird.

 

[boody]

Here is the thing. It sounds so unnatural. I have this problem with trying to make things sound like they belong together or natural. Should I not approach a project such as this, from a "Natural" perspective?
Maybe this album should sound completely unnatural and weird.

Welcome to my world :wink: This situation gives you more artistic freedom, with more producer type decisions to make (like overdubbing). The two problems you face (as you noticed) are 1) the band doesn't really interact 2) the sounds are clinically apart (no common room sound and no real mic bleed).

1) means you got to enhance/create interaction. Automation/edditing is the key.
2) means you need extra space makers to get common 'glue'. For this reason I always use a mono reflection (rs-1), a stereo reflection (rs-1 or lexicon ambiance) and a 'normal' reverb, recently plate 140 and/or lexicon. This gives me control over a virtual 'back wall' (mono reflection), virtual sidewalls (stereo reflection) and overall room space.

You can create very organic mixes like this with much more control but you trade it for natural interaction. That part is the hardest to create. I used to create many layers in the arrangement to get more layered interaction, but that leads to a very crowded mix (see http://www.xilke.com). Nowadays I try to achieve it with less layers and more natural interaction by recording parts of the band simultaneous (see http://www.alisemusic.com : not finished yet

there must be a thousand different ways to approach this, but this is the way I do it :wink:

 

[mattianlaseppia]

Also, don't forget the "drums n bass - subgroup compression" or the Kick sidechaining the bass trick. Can't do any groove driven mix without side-chaining the bass to the kickdrum, even one db will make the groove sit so much better!

could you explain your "drum n bass - subgroup compression"?

what you say about use a channel strip is also because it don't have numbers? not too much tech things? i use a lot things like waves req or sonalksis or just logic eq (that to me is really great for subasses and strong hi/lo cut) but i lose my self a lot with numbers, q, gain.. etc.

is also interesting what you say about "make one element sounds great than use it as a reference" but sometimes i can't make one element sounds really as i like.. and i can't start to mix great.. i change element.. anything.. i've burn my brain..

but yes, in a recent mix, i've heard at the first time the kick really as i want, than the snare, than hh, than bass, and than all the rest.. until vox.. and i don't know if i've make a great vocal or not.. so i'm stopped.

sometimes also happen that i start turning knobs, by instinct, with an air eq that have any number, and i go.. i go.. than i export i listen and i prefer the not mixed version.. for that a lot of times i spent to much times with tech things, number, etc, because happens also that seems i mix but i don't hear anything

well.. when you don't find the track to make it exactly as you want.. to start mixing.. what you do? how you start mixing?

another thing, supposing that you have to make a mix without tracking, i mean with a direct flat tracking, what is your approach?

 

[jeff_free69X]

Yep I think I know what you're saying - I think of it as sculpting.

To paraphrase how a famous scupltor described his process:
\"I start with a big chunk of marble, and chisel away anything that doesn't look like a statue\".

When you start mixing you've already layed down all these fantastic tracks for rythm, vocals, leads keys etc, and they all want to see the light of day and be set to 11.

But for something to get louder, something else must get lower.
( eg For clearer vocals, I scoop a little 1.5k mid from the guitar and snare, etc) .

So your job as a mixer is to chisel away anything that doesn't sound like the song it needs to be.

And just to make it trickier, you have to make sure it doesn't suck, no matter what system it gets played on. That awesome subwooefer-ed kick is now making the boombox speakers pop clear out of the box - back to bass EQ cut! A little too little bass is not as bad as too much.

But afterall, recording is really the art of illusion. THink about it, fidelity and accuracy have little to do with it when you're trying to make a full band, orchestra or whatever sound real when its coming from a 5\" speaker.

 

[mattianlaseppia]

thanks!
about d'nbass subgroup compression, i do me too a subgroup compression, and eqing etc, but what i ask is why \"d'nbass\" subgroup compression? why this name? what is different?

 

[sniper]

I'm from the \"cut out whatever is not neccesary\" school. However i would like to be more agressive..

I'd LOVE to boost left and right but my plugs just won't let me!
Yeah well, the Pultec lets me add a few db's here and there and the shelve on 88RS is quite allright but, no. I'm rather stuck with a good recording and then cut out what is not supposed to be in the mix.

I would really like to go the other way though! I seriously haven't boosted any frequencies to shape a sound since 1991.