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How hard do you push the Precision Limiter?

Das Poop

Member
I've been doing a bit of home mastering on some tracks. I usually have something like this

Precision Multiband -> Fairchild -> Precision EQ -> Precision Limiter

I set the Precision Limiter Output to -.10dB and then adjust the input gain until it peaks at the -.10dB at the loudest parts, but doesn't press it there the entire time....just the loudest parts

What I've noticed is that this produces a VERY loud mix...almost too loud. When I compare it to professional mixes, my mix is actually noticibly louder (which I don't think is a good thing). Given all of the \"loudness wars\" talk out there (pros going for max loudness), I'm surprised how loud my mixes are compared to CDs in my collection (and confused as to how/why mine would be that much louder).

I was wondering what target output others use on the precision limiter and how far they drive the gain? Are you also surprised at how loud your mixes get w/ the precision limiter?
 

Plec

Venerated Member
Don't know what you're comparing against... but using only the PLIM to gain loudness will effectively make your mix land 2-3db lower in apparent level than most commercial releases... and that's when really pushing it.

I think it sounds best when not pushed beyond 2db for complete mixes. It is without a doubt the cleanest, most full sounding limiter on the market, still!
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
It does OK with the peak gain reduction at -3dB. A couple in a row is nice, maybe with the first one doing maximum reduction of -2dB and the second a bit less.
 

bob humid

Active Member
Das Poop said:
I've been doing a bit of home mastering on some tracks. I usually have something like this

Precision Multiband -> Fairchild -> Precision EQ -> Precision Limiter

I set the Precision Limiter Output to -.10dB and then adjust the input gain until it peaks at the -.10dB at the loudest parts, but doesn't press it there the entire time....just the loudest parts

What I've noticed is that this produces a VERY loud mix...almost too loud. When I compare it to professional mixes, my mix is actually noticibly louder (which I don't think is a good thing). Given all of the "loudness wars" talk out there (pros going for max loudness), I'm surprised how loud my mixes are compared to CDs in my collection (and confused as to how/why mine would be that much louder).

I was wondering what target output others use on the precision limiter and how far they drive the gain? Are you also surprised at how loud your mixes get w/ the precision limiter?
its quite an unusual mastering-chain you use there... try to experiment with more classical setups: highpass in PEQ -> EQ-ing in PEQ then FAIRCHILD then P-LIMITER .. slamming a mastering with a multiband AND a singleband compressor like the FAIRCHILD at the same time sounds pretty harsh to me... I do use the PMB as an enhancer for kickdrums (50-250 Hz) but rarely to beef up a track... the PSP MasterComp is more like it...

as plec said: best results around 2dB of GR for full mixes. sometimes you can hit a track with 5dB GR but that might be more suitable for tracks that dont have much bass energy ... if your limiter hits 6dB GR and you are still not loud enough something is wrong in the mix.. at least that will be the case with pop / dance / rock etc...

robert
 

Das Poop

Member
Thanks guys. I did some research on RMS levels and found that I was probably pushing it too far for my style music....dialed it back from around -8 to -10 range to around -12 to -14. It seems to be much better now 8) .

robert,
i always thought it was compression before EQ, not after...is that not right?
 

taylor

Active Member
there is no right or wrong..

i tend to compress first.. to give myself a smoother signal into the EQ.

no hard rules, whatever works for you!
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
bob humid said:
slamming a mastering with a multiband AND a singleband compressor like the FAIRCHILD at the same time sounds pretty harsh to me...
Doing exactly this works well for me as long as I don't push any single stage too hard. The first compressor catches peaks and adds some glue, the multiband provides a bit of control, and the final limiter just provides that last dB and prevents overs.
 

bob humid

Active Member
Das Poop said:
Thanks guys. I did some research on RMS levels and found that I was probably pushing it too far for my style music....dialed it back from around -8 to -10 range to around -12 to -14. It seems to be much better now 8) .

robert,
i always thought it was compression before EQ, not after...is that not right?
if it was meant as a classical mastering chain it is in fact unusual. but to agree with the other guys here and with joe meek who said "if it sounds right it is right" go ahead with whatever you feel sounds right, if you have the feeling you know what you do.. however, it would be silly to totally ignore established methods. try them too....

"normal" mastering chain is:

1) highpass at around 20-30Hz (butterworth)
2) frequency adjustments, boosts and corrections
3) a fancy side-chainable single-band compressor (take out all freqs under 155 Hz from the triggering with the side-chain EQ)
4) limiter / peak stop / dithering

note that multi-band compressors may work "ok" on material that was not bus-compressed at all, while 1-2 dB gain reduction from a single-band compressor can glue things together in a much more sexy way... also multiband-compression tends to disrupt depth perception and imaging. PMB is still super cool as a surgical tool and as a high-class dynamic enhancer or HF-limiter (I use HF-limiting before cutting to vinyl quite often).

as with all compressors you need to set back the output volume to the same perceived loudness of the unprocessed material to get a good feeling if you overdid squeezing...

robert
 

bob humid

Active Member
Eric Dahlberg said:
[quote="bob humid":2jhpun7l]slamming a mastering with a multiband AND a singleband compressor like the FAIRCHILD at the same time sounds pretty harsh to me...
Doing exactly this works well for me as long as I don't push any single stage too hard. The first compressor catches peaks and adds some glue, the multiband provides a bit of control, and the final limiter just provides that last dB and prevents overs.[/quote:2jhpun7l]

may work as you say if you use them gently. but the fairchild is by far no transparent compressor for modern music styles and especially mastering where transparent sound-shaping is the main task. the FC adds a lot of mid freq energy and tends to suck up subsonic information a bit, even with just 1-2 dB GR ... I use it mainly on vocal busses. sometimes bass, if we talk "slap" bass.. but of course you can correct the missing bass afterwards with a second linear-phase EQ or such.
 

Fundy

Established Member
I think parallel compression works pretty well along with EQ before limiting.
 

djsynchro

Hall of Fame Member
If you like the Fairchild on your master bus but you also want big bass a way around it is to split the audio in 2 bands as described here:

http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2003/july/index3.html

Then use the Fairchild for the mid-high band and compress the bass with another compressor. :idea:

I got the Fairchild in my Studio-Pak, don't think I would've bought it otherwise... I always think it sounds \"interesting\" but never use it.
 

XAXAU

Established Member
the first thing i do is put on the plimiter or i clip it a bit, whichever sounds best. this way if i want to put a comp on there it wont start bouncing around cause of some silly inaudible mini transient. protect the comp.

i rarely put a comp on the 2-bus tho. 1dB GR maybe. it just sounds weird. maybe it´s just the music i´m producing i dunno. i don´t give a shit about this glue you´re talking about, i want energy. an LA2A just on usually sounds nice.

a parallell comp is cool tho. it´s even better if it steals the subs and put more energy into the mids. it has to be quite fast.

then 3 plimiters in a row and you´ve got -6dBRMSFS with energy and impact still somewhat intact :D
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
Agreed on all comments about the Fairchild. I don't think it's at all useful when mastering. In the chain I described above, it's usually either the Duende or Oxford, and sometimes the 33609, but never the Fairchild.
 

Macc

Established Member
Eric Dahlberg said:
Agreed on all comments about the Fairchild. I don't think it's at all useful when mastering. In the chain I described above, it's usually either the Duende or Oxford, and sometimes the 33609, but never the Fairchild.
I find it very useful in parallel. You can just use it 'normally' with serious spanking, mix it in very low (peaking at -20 or less) under the track and fill things out a bit. The best is to set it up right and then with it all mixed back in, adjust the time constant to see what suits the track best. Tunes which need balls often want time constant 1, some snappier tracks prefer 3, 4, 5 or 6.

Even better - when required - is to use it in Lat/Vert, unlink the sidechains and controls, then solo the Fairchild. Then set up the sound to get what you want to add to the track (say, a fuller middle, or more sides or whatever), but still keeping it balanced, always watching for funny release-related effects. Then mix that subtly in under the main channel. It can really sort out tunes where, for example, the middle is a bit weak.

All best used in moderation of course, but invaluable (for me) nevertheless! It was a mastering compressor originally, right? :D

:)
 

bob humid

Active Member
XAXAU said:
the first thing i do is put on the plimiter or i clip it a bit, whichever sounds best. this way if i want to put a comp on there it wont start bouncing around cause of some silly inaudible mini transient. protect the comp.

i rarely put a comp on the 2-bus tho. 1dB GR maybe. it just sounds weird. maybe it´s just the music i´m producing i dunno. i don´t give a shit about this glue you´re talking about, i want energy. an LA2A just on usually sounds nice.

a parallell comp is cool tho. it´s even better if it steals the subs and put more energy into the mids. it has to be quite fast.

then 3 plimiters in a row and you´ve got -6dBRMSFS with energy and impact still somewhat intact :D
sorry mate. with -6dB RMS there is no "energy" going out of your speakers and the bass will be weak. just nervously cramped airwaves. just compare -10dB RMS masters with -6dB RMS masters and put them on the same perceived volume level. you will notice that the -10dB master is MUCH fatter. sorry. no chance....
 

bob humid

Active Member
Macc said:
Eric Dahlberg said:
Agreed on all comments about the Fairchild. I don't think it's at all useful when mastering. In the chain I described above, it's usually either the Duende or Oxford, and sometimes the 33609, but never the Fairchild.
All best used in moderation of course, but invaluable (for me) nevertheless! It was a mastering compressor originally, right? :D

:)
yes. paralell modes are great.. but then the LA2A, the 1176 and all other track / bus compressors are useful for mastering too... try splitting a track into 4 bands (samplitude can do this) and put a 1176 on each frequency. you get a 4-band analogue sounding multiband whip.

used as a simple insert the FC is very tricky for modern music styles. still, you will find no better mastering compressor if you want to simulate the banging, present mastering sound of george martin and the beatles... :) .. in those times they just put all the effort into the mid freqs ..and that is the true school of audio design and mixing...

so many ways lead to rome...
 

XAXAU

Established Member
bob humid said:
XAXAU said:
the first thing i do is put on the plimiter or i clip it a bit, whichever sounds best. this way if i want to put a comp on there it wont start bouncing around cause of some silly inaudible mini transient. protect the comp.

i rarely put a comp on the 2-bus tho. 1dB GR maybe. it just sounds weird. maybe it´s just the music i´m producing i dunno. i don´t give a shit about this glue you´re talking about, i want energy. an LA2A just on usually sounds nice.

a parallell comp is cool tho. it´s even better if it steals the subs and put more energy into the mids. it has to be quite fast.

then 3 plimiters in a row and you´ve got -6dBRMSFS with energy and impact still somewhat intact :D
sorry mate. with -6dB RMS there is no "energy" going out of your speakers and the bass will be weak. just nervously cramped airwaves. just compare -10dB RMS masters with -6dB RMS masters and put them on the same perceived volume level. you will notice that the -10dB master is MUCH fatter. sorry. no chance....
did you notice how i said "-6dBRMSFS with energy and impact still somewhat intact" ? :)

it all depends who produce and mix it. i get to -10dBRMSFS plus bass sweeping up to -9 without any bus- or 2-bus compression/ limiting.

i never said that the "louder" one would sound any better or fatter. it´s quite obvious it won´t :)

but for me, all this loudness race has been really good. the louder mixes i can do the better i´m getting at mixing. and the more i can back off.
i make dance music so ther´s really no need to have loud mixes since i have a gain pot on my mixer. personally i prefer being around -10dBRMSFS.
 

bob humid

Active Member
XAXAU said:
bob humid said:
XAXAU said:
the first thing i do is put on the plimiter or i clip it a bit, whichever sounds best. this way if i want to put a comp on there it wont start bouncing around cause of some silly inaudible mini transient. protect the comp.

i rarely put a comp on the 2-bus tho. 1dB GR maybe. it just sounds weird. maybe it´s just the music i´m producing i dunno. i don´t give a shit about this glue you´re talking about, i want energy. an LA2A just on usually sounds nice.

a parallell comp is cool tho. it´s even better if it steals the subs and put more energy into the mids. it has to be quite fast.

then 3 plimiters in a row and you´ve got -6dBRMSFS with energy and impact still somewhat intact :D
sorry mate. with -6dB RMS there is no "energy" going out of your speakers and the bass will be weak. just nervously cramped airwaves. just compare -10dB RMS masters with -6dB RMS masters and put them on the same perceived volume level. you will notice that the -10dB master is MUCH fatter. sorry. no chance....
did you notice how i said "-6dBRMSFS with energy and impact still somewhat intact" ? :)

it all depends who produce and mix it. i get to -10dBRMSFS plus bass sweeping up to -9 without any bus- or 2-bus compression/ limiting.

i never said that the "louder" one would sound any better or fatter. it´s quite obvious it won´t :)

but for me, all this loudness race has been really good. the louder mixes i can do the better i´m getting at mixing. and the more i can back off.
i make dance music so ther´s really no need to have loud mixes since i have a gain pot on my mixer. personally i prefer being around -10dBRMSFS.
ok. I see now. you frightened me ;) ..

its true, the richer and fuller a mix fills out the frequency range, the easier you can have RMS peaks hitting -9dB ... however, most mixes still sound better with -10dB RMS...

also, "loud" is always in relation to the frequency region where we are most sensitive: 2 to 5.5 KHz ... take care of that range properly and all the important details of the mix come up naturally. its also really the problematic frequency range where most of my clients forget to mix properly..

best

robert
 

nostressor

Shareholder
Moderator
Moderator
Eric Dahlberg said:
Agreed on all comments about the Fairchild. I don't think it's at all useful when mastering. In the chain I described above, it's usually either the Duende or Oxford, and sometimes the 33609, but never the Fairchild.
in lat vert it sometimes saves some stuff i get thrown in my lap.
 
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