Is anyone able to run an Apollo at 96khz without issues?

[fancy_pance]

Hi, I have a hybrid computer / hardware setup. From the computer, I mostly play virtual instruments like NI Kontakt + Komplete, Superior Drummer, etc. live/realtime from my midi keyboard and then feed that audio into outboard gear. The outboard gear is then wired back into the interface. I monitor everything from console.

I've been trying to get latency sufficiently low for my setup, but struggling. If I crank the Apollo sample rate up to 96khz, and at a 64 sample buffer, I can get sub 3ms RTL, which is where I really want to be. Most of my virtual instruments play back without too much issue when loaded in an empty and stopped daw set. But as soon as I press play or run anything else in my daw, I start to get clicks and other artifacts. In fact, even without any instruments loaded, I get the same artifacts just playing back a simple WAV file. Things are slightly better at a buffer setting of 128, but still not usable. I have no problems at 48khz, even at a buffer of 32 samples. Unfortunately, the latency is noticeably worse.

So my question is: should I expect 96 / 64 to work on my system, or am I demanding too much of this hardware?

For reference: I’m using an Apollo X8 with an M2 MacBook Pro, running Ableton as well as Cubase.

 

[hotspot]

Totally am I able to work in 96 or even 192kHz with my Apollo.
In my case it’s 95 percent audio.
What you actually aiming for is the power of your computer as you mentioned you are playing almost only virtual instruments.
In the case of using already produced sounds I don’t see any benefit of working on higher rates than say 48kHz.
I use higher rates for better recordings using UAD2 plugs, unison preamps and/or amps.
The downside of their better sounding results are the huge audio files, that eat SSD space en masse.

 

[fancy_pance]

Thanks for the reply. I too assumed my issues were related to virtual instrument usage, but then I experienced the same artifacts when I was just playing back a single audio file (without any instruments loaded/playing)

It sounds like you are just tracking external sources through the inputs, so I’m guessing that even though you are working at 96khz+, your daw buffer is much higher than mine? I guess it’s my combo of high sample rate PLUS small buffer that’s making things so tricky for me.

Unfortunately, I need to have quick response time from the virtual instruments in the computer as well as quick monitoring from the external inputs.

 

[squeakyanimal]

I work at 96kHz with an M2 (Studio) and an Apollo X6 all the time. I don't use either Ableton or Cubase, but in Logic I can run 96/64 stably within a reasonable track count. The only time I run into trouble is when I use a really piggy VI or dump too many native plugins into play (the latter is usually a sign I'm struggling with the mix, lol). But for a project with a reasonable number of audio tracks, a couple playback VIs, and a VI that I'm playing along live is generally fine.

If you're getting crackling at 96/64 with just an audio file, something is not right. Are there any other processes running in the background sucking up computing power?

 

[hotspot]

I would set buffer size depending on the task I’m up to. It’s the smallest buffer possible (16 or 32) for recording and a high buffer like 512 for mixing, which in my case are two separate tasks.
If it’s necessary to record audio while having heavy load from vst instruments, I‘d always bounce that sh*t to plain audio before.

 

[squeakyanimal]

I would set buffer size depending on the task I’m up to. It’s the smallest buffer possible (16 or 32) for recording and a high buffer like 512 for mixing, which in my case are two separate tasks.
If it’s necessary to record audio while having heavy load from vst instruments, I‘d always bounce that sh*t to plain audio before.

Yup!

 

[fancy_pance]

Thanks for sharing your experience, squeaky. It gives me hope to know it’s working for you! I do typically have a bunch of other apps running at the same time, and a number of background processes (backup schedulers, display controllers, etc). However, I always have Activity Monitor open and I make sure that CPU and RAM usage are always very low. Any suggestions of things to turn off/disable?

 

[hotspot]

As you mentioned Cubase... I learnt recently that you'll need to format your drive in Mac OS Extended (journaled) instead of extFAT.
I've had the same issue with Cubase in higher sample rates. It drove me nuts and took a couple of hours troubleshooting because there was no problem with Logic on the same computer. Until I found an article by Steinberg describing why extFAT doesn't work reliably, especially under Sonoma.
After formatting my drive Mac OS Extended, everything was fine.

It's a good idea too to run your audio projects on another disc than your system.

 

[squeakyanimal]

Thanks for sharing your experience, squeaky. It gives me hope to know it’s working for you! I do typically have a bunch of other apps running at the same time, and a number of background processes (backup schedulers, display controllers, etc). However, I always have Activity Monitor open and I make sure that CPU and RAM usage are always very low. Any suggestions of things to turn off/disable?

Hard to day, unfortunately (note that at least in my experience, Activity Monitor is not a good yardstick for whether the system is going to glitch). If I had to troubleshoot, I would first turn off absolutely everything not directly related to the music production and see if that helps. If so, you can then add processes back one at a time to see who is the bad actor.

If turning everything non-essential off doesn't help, I would try making a fresh new user account and seeing if that helps.

Sorry I can't be more specifically helpful—my approach has just been to keep everything minimal so I don't have a good read on what's likely to create problems. I hope you figure it out!

 

[chrisso]

I never touch my buffer size (set at the default) and I never look at the activity monitor.
I always record at 96/24 and have done for years. I'm recording multi-mic drums. I have a couple of virtual instruments going too, mostly for click tracks etc. My system runs super smooth on an M1 MacBook Air (quite under powered). I record everything to an external SSD, not to the Mac internal drive.
I would stop trying to do lots of background tasks and I never have any other browsers or apps open when I'm tracking.

 

[fancy_pance]

Thank you all for the feedback and suggestions. I've tried following all of the 'system optimization' guides, disabling lots of things, closing applications and killing background processes. Unfortunately the problem persists. Here's a recording of the issue. The first few seconds are me playing a few notes through a Kontakt instrument. Everything sounds fine. Then I press play in the DAW and the artifacts start. It's a kind of repetitive, rhythmic effect. Makes me think of clock issues..

https://soundcloud.com/fancy_the_pance%2F96khz-playback-issues

 

[fancy_pance]

Made an interesting discovery just now... I opened Logic for the first time in a while (now version 11) and experience no artifacts during playback at 96 / 64.

So, the same issue in Cubase and Ableton, but no problem in Logic.

 

[hotspot]

Made an interesting discovery just now... I opened Logic for the first time in a while (now version 11) and experience no artifacts during playback at 96 / 64.

So, the same issue in Cubase and Ableton, but no problem in Logic.

So, how is your disc formatted? It's exactly the same behavior I've had with Cubase vs. Logic.

 

[fancy_pance]

So, how is your disc formatted? It's exactly the same behavior I've had with Cubase vs. Logic.

Super interesting. I will double check when I get back to my studio but I’m almost certain it’s macOS extended (journaled). I actually didn’t think it was possible to run macOS on a drive formatted any other way.

Btw, I assume you’re referring to the boot drive, or whatever drive the Cubase application runs from?

 

[hotspot]

I actually didn’t think it was possible to run macOS on a drive formatted any other way.

Maybe, it was an external SSD in my case. It's the drive containing your project files.

 

[Joe Porto]

Are you by chance using any VST2 plugins rather than VST3?

 

[fancy_pance]

Maybe, it was an external SSD in my case. It's the drive containing your project files.

Okay, just checked and all of my hard drives, internal as well as attached, are formatted APFS. This is another proprietary Apple File system, and a quick Googling indicates that it is the format of choice for SSDs, whereas HFS+ (aka macOS Journaled (extended)) is better for HDDs. Do you recall reading anything about APFS when you were investigating your issue? I could understand how exFAT might cause issues, but I would be shocked if APFS was similarly problematic.

 

[fancy_pance]

Are you by chance using any VST2 plugins rather than VST3?

Good thought.. although nope, I don't even have the VST2 plugin folder enabled in Ableton.

 

[fancy_pance]

Ok culprit found!! Joe Porto's comment inspired me to look at plugins more closely. Turns out my metering plugin was the problem (Youlean Loudness Meter 2). I have it loaded in my default project in both Ableton and Cubase, but not in Logic. The plugin only works when transport is running. As soon as I disabled it, the glitches stopped. Hooray! Thanks again everyone for all your help!

 

[squeakyanimal]

I love the smell of troubleshooting in the morning! Congrats on finding the culprit.