Logic Midi latency driving me mad!

[Basic]

Hello.
I'm running the following system:
Dual 2.3 GHz G5
2.5 GB Ram
OS 10.4.8
UAD OS 4.7.0
Logic Pro 7.2.3
MOTU 828 Mk1
AMD chipset option has been selected.

My problem is that once I get in deep into making a song using several pluggin instruments, audio tracks and UAD-1 plugs I start to have midi latency issues which makes inputing midi a nightmare. I tried to use the delay comp pluggin but that seems to be only if the audio is out of sync/delayed.

I have my I/O buffer in Logic set to 512 , my process buffer range set to medium.

Any suggestions would be really appreciated.
Brett

 

[jimmymio]

Are you sure that you have Logic's \"plug-in delay compensation\" properly set? I dont believe it only pertains to audio.
JP

 

[Shedua 511]

You'll have to set Logic's internal plug-in delay compensation.
From \"Logic Pro\" in the menu bar select \"Preferences...\" > \"Audio\". Under \"General\" select \"all\" from the \"Plug-in delay compensation\" pull-down menu.
I don't have any UAD-1s (yet!), but this sorts the latency of my Liquid Mix and other plug-ins.
You'll still have some latency when playing soft-synths, it's the nature of things, but should be workable... occasionally I've taken all the data in the matrix and moved them to the right spot to correct latency.

 

[Basic]

So I did some searching last night on another forum (I tried to post a link in this window but this forum doesn't allow it). Basically what I read was that when you use PDC set to \"all\" it makes playing ,recording MIDI have a huge delay(once you've had several pluggins/UAD-1 open on busses).

You have to either deal with the MIDI delay and use PDC or turn it off and not put UAD-1 plugs on your busses/groups (which is what causes the delays). I'm really dissapointed about this as I use my UAD right from the start that I make a song ,processes my drums and noises on busses to make them pop and sound just right. It seems though If i want to be able to do any MIDI down the road on these songs ill have to stop using the busses for this....

lame...

If anyone has a fix or any info pleas let us know as this is a MAJOR problem in my eyes.

Thanks,
Brett

 

[Guest]

You have to either deal with the MIDI delay and use PDC or turn it off and not put UAD-1 plugs on your busses/groups (which is what causes the delays). I'm really dissapointed about this as I use my UAD right from the start that I make a song ,processes my drums and noises on busses to make them pop and sound just right. It seems though If i want to be able to do any MIDI down the road on these songs ill have to stop using the busses for this....

This is the one of reason that I've switched to DigitalPerformer from LogicPro since last year. :|

 

[JuergenW]

If I understand you right, you use Audio-Instruments with UAD-Plugins - and
therefore have delay when playing it, right?

This is in every Sequencer due to the realtime-latency of DSP-cards and
not a Logic issue. You need to live with it or switch the DSP of, when adding
Midi on DSP-processed tracks. We all have to deal with that, therefor I try
to avoid using the Plug-ins until mixing stage...

One really bad thing in Logic is when you use DSP-plugins on Outputs,
Logic just delays all the other Outputs (the same happens with busses).
This is a very raw kind of solution, because other Sequencers (as Cubase
and Nuendo - don´t know if DP does?) delay the Tracks and Instruments
in Playback. Due to this even when you play an Instrument WHICH HAS
NO DSP EITHER IN INSERTS OR ROUTING CHAIN it will be delayed..
The PDC of Logic can´t handle this.

Best solution to live with it is to get your CoreAudio Latency as low as possible.
ApogeeSymphony and RME are IMO so far the fastest even with high CPU-
Load.

If you can get down to 64 samples or 128 samples you reduce latency a lot.

Hope this helps... BTW: A real Logic Bug with DelayCompensation - external
Midi-Devices (such as synths and expanders) will not get automaticaly delayed
to match the PDC of Logic, which results in External Instruments play
earlier in comparison to Audioinstruments/Tracks when mixing Analog...

 

[Guest]

This is in every Sequencer due to the realtime-latency of DSP-cards and
not a Logic issue. You need to live with it or switch the DSP of, when adding
Midi on DSP-processed tracks. We all have to deal with that, therefor I try
to avoid using the Plug-ins until mixing stage...

oops, maybe I'm misunderstanding...?
But PDC doesn't work on the BUSes for me.

 

[JuergenW]

In Logic you can choose two different Delay-Compensations (or turn it off):
Mode 1 - Audio Tracks & Instruments
Mode 2 - All (also Bus and Outputs)

The latter is necessary if you want to use Busses for Subgroups (or Outputs).

Please mind that the PDC does only mean that Logic delays the other Busses
and Outputs additional . It can´t avoid the latency of the DSP processing,
so it compensates with delaying all the non-processed Busses and Outputs, too.

If you´re composing, and want to use UAD-Plugins, avoid using them on
Busses and Outputs until mixing stage. It´s the only way.

Anyway I want to tell you, that playing Instruments with 512 samples
Buffersize is even without additonal DSP-delays a pain in the ass. For me
256 is the least necessary to play. I know that the MOTU aren´t that fast
especially when driving your CPU. But for example with RME (in a nearly
same price range) Fireface400 you will be able to drop down to 128 or
less on your system. Which means if you use 1 UAD Plugin you´re on 256,
with 2 in a row at 364, and with 3 UAD in chain you´re at your best possible
latency you have yet!

BTW: Mode 1 can be helpfull if you want to use a Reverb (Plate140 etc.)
in a Bus as a Send. You´ll have the Reverb delayed in comparision to the
tracks, but it doesn´t affect your latency because Logic will not delay the
other Busses and Outputs to compensate. :wink:

 

[pnajar]

The issue you're experiencing is the simple reality for ANY program that compensates for plugin delay. What you're coming up against is the limitations of the technology. It's not a bug. You have two options.

1) Turn PDC on and as you start to add a few plugins the latency when triggering virtual instruments will get worse once you start insterting pluigns that require time to do their job.

2) Turn off PDC but then the existing audio that has plugins on it will be out of time and live performance will be tainted because of it.

Neither option is ideal. Here's how I work around it.

When I'm tracking parts I don't use plugins, or I only use plugins that I know have little or no latency - like Logic's own compressor for example. Definitely not UAD plugins because you've already got latency due to the extra loop the audio has to do to get through the UAD card.

Finally, you mention that you're using a 512 sample buffer. To me, this is already a big buffer and I would not dream of using one this big while tracking because the latency is already not good. I never track using anything bigger that 128. Amongst many professionals this has become the defacto standard that we don't like to go beyond while tracking.

Good luck...

 

[boody]

So I did some searching last night on another forum (I tried to post a link in this window but this forum doesn't allow it). Basically what I read was that when you use PDC set to "all" it makes playing ,recording MIDI have a huge delay(once you've had several pluggins/UAD-1 open on busses).

You have to either deal with the MIDI delay and use PDC or turn it off and not put UAD-1 plugs on your busses/groups (which is what causes the delays). I'm really dissapointed about this as I use my UAD right from the start that I make a song ,processes my drums and noises on busses to make them pop and sound just right. It seems though If i want to be able to do any MIDI down the road on these songs ill have to stop using the busses for this....

lame...

If anyone has a fix or any info pleas let us know as this is a MAJOR problem in my eyes.

Thanks,
Brett

For the people who don't understand; this issue is a problem with LOGIC when using extern midi devices. PDC set to all will compensate all intern stuff, but not the extern midi instruments. Workaround suggested by Apple is to reroute the output of extern midi instruments back into logic through an input or aux channel. This way the latency is compensated.

This issue is due to the fact that Logic doesn't use a ping system to determine latency. The choice was to reroute or to compensate midi, and they think most people prefer rerouting (iow don't use an external mixing desk). I hope a new version of logic will fix this flaw.

My solution would be to record the extern midi instruments to audio before mixing. The advantage of that is that you force yourself to make production and arrangement choices before the mixing stage which IMHO will improve both production and mixing skills... but of course that's my personal opinion :wink:

cheers
Budy

 

[Basic]

Thanks to everyone for their advice. Since this post I have purchased Logic 8 and have downloaded UAD 4.9 . I have set my buffer size to 128 and am hoping that between the software updates mentioned above and my substituting bus objects for aux objects my midi latency will be much lower???

I'm aware that PDC causes the MIDI latency, is there anyway to use the UAD plugs and not have to use PDC?

Happy new year!
Brett

 

[boody]

Thanks to everyone for their advice. Since this post I have purchased Logic 8 and have downloaded UAD 4.9 . I have set my buffer size to 128 and am hoping that between the software updates mentioned above and my substituting bus objects for aux objects my midi latency will be much lower???

I'm aware that PDC causes the MIDI latency, is there anyway to use the UAD plugs and not have to use PDC?

Happy new year!
Brett

with all dsp based plugs (uad duende etc) you have extra buffers that increase latency in any DAW, Check your uad manual for details.

Logic 8 has the 'force low latency' button so that's all settled. By the way; you only have latency problems when you try to record midi through a uad plug. Bus objects are no longer needed and all routing is compensated for since logic 7. Be sure to check out that low latency button, looks like it's made for you

 

[Ashermusic]

Also, in the UAD-Meter in the Configurations panel, make sure you have checked \"Force Logic to use \"live mode\" for tracks with UAD-1 plug-ins.\"