Logic Pro; extern midi timing useless?

[boody]

Struggling with Logic Pro here: next to instruments dropping out randomly with restart as the only sollution, I'm now struggling with the timing of my extern synths.

When using full pdc or latency compensation with the track advance plugins, miditiming becomes useless: all extern midi instruments are early. Is there a way to solve this? If not, Logic Pro is useless. If the timing can't be trusted, this is where it ends....

any help much appreciated

regards
Budy

 

[Trace]

Struggling with Logic Pro here: next to instruments dropping out randomly with restart as the only sollution, I'm now struggling with the timing of my extern synths.

When using full pdc or latency compensation with the track advance plugins, miditiming becomes useless: all extern midi instruments are early. Is there a way to solve this? If not, Logic Pro is useless. If the timing can't be trusted, this is where it ends....

any help much appreciated

regards
Budy

I don't think you need to make any manual adjusments for external midi synths. I never do. I'm not using Logic, but I would think that this should be the same across all DAW's. From what I understand PDC will adjust the effected audio tracks automatically. It likely shifts them earlier in order to play in time with the Midi and non effected audio tracks. So your midi tracks never actually get time shifted, only the playback of the effected audio tracks.

There must be something you're doing that is in excess. The midi tracks should be playing at exactly the right time as do the audio tracks with no plug ins.

TRACE

 

[boody]

{second attempt: post server crashed...again}

Hi Trace,

I know, but here's the case:

according to Apple Logic Pro has full PDC BUT if you use it your midi will be out of sync. A solution they provide is to feed the audio of yuor synths back into logic, but I don't want that: I use outboard mixers.

So; I can do it the old Logic 5 way and use the trackadvance plugins to compensate. This way the latency will be compensated on the tracks instead of the busses, and all wil be fine.....WRONG. Logic \"Pro\" in this case still messes up the midi timing, so:
using uad plugs on busses will render miditracks useless.

WRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (sorry) :roll:

 

[Trace]

{second attempt: post server crashed...again}

Hi Trace,

I know, but here's the case:

according to Apple Logic Pro has full PDC BUT if you use it your midi will be out of sync. A solution they provide is to feed the audio of yuor synths back into logic, but I don't want that: I use outboard mixers.

So; I can do it the old Logic 5 way and use the trackadvance plugins to compensate. This way the latency will be compensated on the tracks instead of the busses, and all wil be fine.....WRONG. Logic "Pro" in this case still messes up the midi timing, so:
using uad plugs on busses will render miditracks useless.

WRAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (sorry) :roll:

WOW I've never heard of this issue. I thought it worked just like every other DAW App. I don't have to do anything in SX or DP to match up the midi. PDC is supposed to only effect the tracks that have plug ins with latency. The other audio tracks should be left untouched, since they are already sync'd properly with the audio engine.

Have you asked for help on the LUG?

 

[boody]

Hi trace, I hear you. I worked with steinberg on pc and timing never seemed to be a problem. But I switched to mac because I missed my workflow with Logic. Now I'm left with more problems than I had, and it has cost me 2500 euros to get here.

Logic should let go of the midi based engines. Sample accurate editting/ moving of track objects in the arrange window is still not possible, so no phase align, midi instr are not sample accurate, midi engine modulates within resolution marge. I mean: they have sample accurate automation but no sample accurate audio and virtual instruments....

But good to know steinberg works on a mac as wel, so not all is lost. Costs another upgrade if I want to work with sx3 though....

And yes; I'm pulling every doorbel I see: apple support, logicprohelp, apple discussions, sonnikmatter, you name it, I've been there. To no avail yet....

regards
Budy

 

[The Beatsmith]

Yep, we've been talking about this on osxaudio.com

Ridiculous.

 

[F5D]

That's why I don't use the full PDC at all. With normal track compensation my external synths are in sync (or at least I haven't noticed anything strange). Of course I have to compensate the external synths manually (negative midi delay + positive audio recording delay).

 

[Trace]

I had actually considered trying out Logic. Its the only DAW I haven't tried. Now tho I'll hold off on that until they get that straightened out. I don't have time to mess around during sessions. My clients wouldn't accept that.

For me SX isn't perfect, but it works with zero issues and I just get work done, FAST. Not just midi but audio mixing and editing. SX is right in the middle between Logic and DP. Its not as good in some aspects as both of the other apps, but its quick and has less issues in fundemental ways when compared to both the other apps.

TRACE

 

[Ashermusic]

Well, there are two ways to approach things.

1. This is the way I work most efficiently and the app must adjust.
2. This is the way the app works most efficiently and I must adjust.

I suggest either choose number 2 a or choose a different app.

 

[boody]

I agree with you Asher, but if neither PDC method works with extern midi, there must be a problem somewhere in my Mac. So before I spend more money I first want to see what the problem is. To do so, I first must discover which issues are common and which issues are unique to my system. That's the proces I'm in now. That during that proces I discover things that are functioning less efficient, not correct or even completely incorrect will not mean I will leave the program. Every program has it's flaws and I for one can crash every computer. I can fix em too, and right now I'm first going to see whats wrong with my Mac, fix that, and then decide if Logic is workable for me...

I know I ask a lot of questions, and if sometimes I let my head hang down it's because I bought a Mac to be able to focus on music and not on computers.. but now the oppsosie is true

Glad it works for you though

Regards
Budy

 

[Ashermusic]

I agree with you Asher, but if neither PDC method works with extern midi, there must be a problem somewhere in my Mac. So before I spend more money I first want to see what the problem is. To do so, I first must discover which issues are common and which issues are unique to my system. That's the proces I'm in now. That during that proces I discover things that are functioning less efficient, not correct or even completely incorrect will not mean I will leave the program. Every program has it's flaws and I for one can crash every computer. I can fix em too, and right now I'm first going to see whats wrong with my Mac, fix that, and then decide if Logic is workable for me...

I know I ask a lot of questions, and if sometimes I let my head hang down it's because I bought a Mac to be able to focus on music and not on computers.. but now the oppsosie is true

Glad it works for you though

Regards
Budy

Budy, my comments weren't meant specifically for you, just in general. I understand yourr frustration.

 

[boody]

sorry for being selfcentred.... must be due to being locked up with a computer for a week :roll: (not true; I'm playing gigs all weekend)

I'm starting from scratch: run the hardware test for 31hours (crashed during loop #28 while I was out on a gig, appearently on a hd check, run fine again after that), now I'm in the middle of doing a fresh instal.

wish me luck
Budy

 

[F5D]

Well, isn't this same problem with every sequencer out there if you use full PDC? I remember people saying that SX3 has a function called \"constrain PDC\" or something (I don't remember the word correctly) which mutes all plugins which are in busses and auxes and cause extra latency to the whole project. Then you can play software synths \"in realtime\" again and record external gear in sync. Of course the latest version of SX3 includes the external synth-plugins which make use of the PDC too which makes using of external synths alot easier.

IMO the full PDC is not very well implemented in logic (and cubase if it works the same way) if all the realtime stuff gets delayed. I don't understand why they programmed it that way. They should have programmed the full pdc so that every track which includes plugins which cause latency, gets compensated by playing these tracks earlier. And I don't mean the tracks which you're monitoring from external gear because it's impossible to implement but the tracks which are already there in the project. And if you want to play a soft synth in \"realtime\" it works because the software doesn't compensate that track now at all when you're playing. If you add plugins to that track which cause latency, then of course you will hear it (and it will be compensated if you record the notes and then let the sequencer play them) but it's not all right if you get more latency if you add some plugins to totally different tracks or signal paths which have nothing to do with the selected track.

So yes, the full pdc should not cause latency when monitoring external synths but it does. That's why I use only the basic pdc for audio tracks and instruments. I am not sure if I should have problems already when doing like this but I am lucky I haven't noticed any problems.

 

[boody]

Logic 'pro' chose this way because they think most people use Logic as their only (virtual) mixer. They don't expect you to use an external mixer. Feeding the external midi modules back into Logic should cause the external midi to play in sync. The reason tracks get delayed with pdc is to enable this use of the input tracks while mixing....

but what if you want to use a real mixingdesk? I supose then you're not a 'pro'

regards
Budy

 

[boody]

For those interested in this topic: I found a way to make it work in 2 ways -using full PDC and feeding the analog desk back into logic through an Aux-input channel
-using track-PDC and use track advance plugins (prefered; this way you can record stuff without timing issues)

The catch is: everytime you switch to full PDC or change the audiobuffer settings you need to finetune the global midi delay. The timing may vary with each buffersetting and might not be the same twice for a certain buffer setting.

cheers
Budy

 

[HKC]

Budy wrote: Logic 'pro' chose this way because they think most people use Logic as their only (virtual) mixer. They don't expect you to use an external mixer. Feeding the external midi modules back into Logic should cause the external midi to play in sync. The reason tracks get delayed with pdc is to enable this use of the input tracks while mixing....


Which is pretty cool but of course you're right that if you mix with an outboard desk this will become a minor problem. Minor because you can just set the midi delay parameter to compensate for this and you will be up and running again. Logic is quite well thought out, it's just a matter of knowing the programs depths and that, I think, is almost always the reason behind threads like this. Logic is a huge program which covers pretty much everything. While this seems like a good thing it often turns out to be the opposite because you really have to spend a long time, we're talking 6 months or so, with the program before you realise its full potential.

 

[Ninja]

I've been using Logic for 6-7 years and I still am nowhere near using it to it's fullest potential.

 

[boody]

this will become a minor problem. Minor because you can just set the midi delay parameter to compensate for this and you will be up and running again.

Yes, but not so minor if you're mixing with an Uad card with the recommended buffersetting of 1024. That's when you'll find out midi delay parameter only goes to 100ms which is not enough to compensate....

Cheers
Budy