Luna's almost perfect / Feature request

[sastas]

Hi there

I've been using DAWs since 1987 (Amiga Tracker , then Cubase, Logic, ... I've started using Luna three weeks ago, and I must say - THAT'S the DAW I've been waiting for 35 years!!!!!!

To make it perfect for me, three urgent feature requests:

1. Multiple plugin instrument outs (for Drum Machines)
2. Side-Chain per insert (instead per channel)
3. 32 Bit float recording (e.g. with Zoom UAC-232). That's the future, mates! Sick of gain staging at recording time

And I think there might be a bug? For me it's easily reproducable

• Create some tracks
• Let them play
• Mute/Solo some tracks
• Press the "unmute all" or "unsolo all" button at the top menu bar

Result: Luna doesn't stop playing anymore. Neither does it solo/mute any channel anymore.

That said, again: Gorgeous, gorgeous work!!! You made my x-mas.

Cheers!

 

[hotspot]

Gorgeous, gorgeous work

totally!
Make sure you don’t miss the feedback button in the upper right corner. Feature requests (one by one) and bug reports are best placed there. It helps developers and support understanding what ppl request and prioritising their tasks.

 

[sastas]

totally!
Make sure you don’t miss the feedback button in the upper right corner. Feature requests (one by one) and bug reports are best placed there. It helps developers and support understanding what ppl request and prioritising their tasks.

Wow, thanks, however, I see no feedback button in the upper right corner :-(

 

[slamthecrank]

Wow, thanks, however, I see no feedback button in the upper right corner :-(

View attachment 16834

He's talking about the upper right corner of LUNA.

 

[sastas]

He's talking about the upper right corner of LUNA.

Aaa, ok. So THAT's how new I am to Luna

 

[hotspot]

Aaa, ok. So THAT's how new I am to Luna

 

[FutureLegends]

32 Bit float recording (e.g. with Zoom UAC-232). That's the future, mates! Sick of gain staging at recording time

Hmmm... while it makes sense in field recordings and to some degree for live recordings, in studio recordings gain staging is a big part of sculpting your sound. How hard you drive your preamps/compressors etc... So for the most part I don't see it as a very important thing as I'd be doing gain staging anyway...

 

[DanteMurphy]

Hmmm... while it makes sense in field recordings and to some degree for live recordings, in studio recordings gain staging is a big part of sculpting your sound. How hard you drive your preamps/compressors etc... So for the most part I don't see it as a very important thing as I'd be doing gain staging anyway...

Same here - gain staging is where a lot of the magic happens!

 

[sastas]

Same here - gain staging is where a lot of the magic happens!

Sure it is. However, I remember back in 1992. Before, I had already done plenty of gigs and recorded in various fully analog studios. Then, on a gig, for the first time in my life, I had a portable DAT recorder. And the whole concert was clipping. Since then, I've been detesting clipping in the digital world with my whole heart and soul. Back then, the magic was keeping everything in the red area about +1 to +3db. And if by accident we overdrove to +6db ... so what? It wasn't a bug, it was a feature!!! I guess, this is how some whole genres popped into existence.

That said: Clipping is evil!!!! Blessed be 32Bit floating, where there might be no saturation voodoo, but, hey, where I'll get rid of the devil in disguise named "Clipper". Truly evil, believe me, mates.

And after all - UAD is all about analogue simulation, isn't it? So cast away that clipping, folks, just do it

 

[rodd]

So is “the magic” due to pushing the gear up against the top of its headroom, or just the fact that you’re putting enough signal through it to excite the circuitry and make it sound “good”? Maybe it’s the same thing? Because clipping would be hitting the headroom ceiling, but if it’s just raw signal then it seems to me that 32bit float would still allow saturation.

 

[sastas]

So is “the magic” due to pushing the gear up against the top of its headroom, or just the fact that you’re putting enough signal through it to excite the circuitry and make it sound “good”? Maybe it’s the same thing? Because clipping would be hitting the headroom ceiling, but if it’s just raw signal then it seems to me that 32bit float would still allow saturation.

O, where shall I begin? In the digital realm, saturation isn't possible. It's pure arithmetics. In the analogue world, you've got noise and quantum effects, which per se do not allow for precise summing. That said, of course you can try and simulate deterministic noise using digital algorithms, but that does not happen if you don't go for it. I mean, this is what all the talk about "colour" and "character" is all about, isn't it.

However, what you do not simulate (yet) are the quantum effects. I have no idea if they're relevant to our ears, still, as long as the contrary hasn't been proven, I tend to believe they do.

 

[rodd]

O, where shall I begin? In the digital realm, saturation isn't possible. It's pure arithmetics. In the analogue world, you've got noise and quantum effects, which per se do not allow for precise summing. That said, of course you can try and simulate deterministic noise using digital algorithms, but that does not happen if you don't go for it. I mean, this is what all the talk about "colour" and "character" is all about, isn't it.

However, what you do not simulate (yet) are the quantum effects. I have no idea if they're relevant to our ears, still, as long as the contrary hasn't been proven, I tend to believe they do.

So if that’s the case, can’t 32bit float still allow this calculated saturation and still give the benefits of no clipping and less concern over gain staging? Sounds like a saturation knob would do the trick?

 

[sastas]

So if that’s the case, can’t 32bit float still allow this calculated saturation and still give the benefits of no clipping and less concern over gain staging? Sounds like a saturation knob would do the trick?

Yes, indeed, and that's why I've spent hundreds of quid on all sorts of saturation plugins. What I'm talking about is the >= 0db clipping, that really annoying clipping which does not sound pleasing to our ears at all. That's not what saturation plugins do. Saturation plugins simulate the thermal noise and otherwise imperfections of analogue circuits (without the quantum effects). But when you go beyond >= 0db, you've got that dreadful clipping.

 

[Matt Hepworth]

That was with 16-bit (96dB max dynamic range). 24-bit still has not been fully realized in 2023, let alone 32-bit. 24-bit has 144dB dynamic range, which exceeds even what the Zoom you have can handle, I believe.

Sure it is. However, I remember back in 1992. Before, I had already done plenty of gigs and recorded in various fully analog studios. Then, on a gig, for the first time in my life, I had a portable DAT recorder. And the whole concert was clipping. Since then, I've been detesting clipping in the digital world with my whole heart and soul. Back then, the magic was keeping everything in the red area about +1 to +3db. And if by accident we overdrove to +6db ... so what? It wasn't a bug, it was a feature!!! I guess, this is how some whole genres popped into existence.

That said: Clipping is evil!!!! Blessed be 32Bit floating, where there might be no saturation voodoo, but, hey, where I'll get rid of the devil in disguise named "Clipper". Truly evil, believe me, mates.

And after all - UAD is all about analogue simulation, isn't it? So cast away that clipping, folks, just do it

 

[sastas]

That was with 16-bit (96dB max dynamic range). 24-bit still has not been fully realized in 2023, let alone 32-bit. 24-bit has 144dB dynamic range, which exceeds even what the Zoom you have can handle, I believe.

As far as I understand, Zoom's got TWO A/D converters, one for the lower the other for the upper numeric area

 

[rodd]

I think I understand the academic benefit of 32-bit float, but I think the practical application of it is still lacking. As @Matt Hepworth said, 24-bit hasn't even been fully realized. I believe most (all?) plugins and DAWs process audio in 32-bit float these days, so we're really just talking about the input resolution. If you consider that the hardware we deal with doesn't have the ability to go beyond 144dB of dynamic range, there's probably not much point in having a device that claims it can capture in 32-bit float, because you're still working within the constraints of what the hardware can capture. The DAC can't capture/encode what's not there, right?

 

[sastas]

I think I understand the academic benefit of 32-bit float, but I think the practical application of it is still lacking. As @Matt Hepworth said, 24-bit hasn't even been fully realized. I believe most (all?) plugins and DAWs process audio in 32-bit float these days, so we're really just talking about the input resolution. If you consider that the hardware we deal with doesn't have the ability to go beyond 144dB of dynamic range, there's probably not much point in having a device that claims it can capture in 32-bit float, because you're still working within the constraints of what the hardware can capture. The DAC can't capture/encode what's not there, right?

It's far from being only academic. When you have a full 32-bit float recording path - from the A/D converter to the file, and only THEN being processed internally by your DAW with 32-bit fload - and you have signals above 0db, of course, they clip ... FIRST. BUT ... when you scale down (i.e. the volume), you've got no more clipping. That's what I'm talking about:


And yes, you could do it with proper gain staging, still it's alway possible that there's an accident signal above 0db. Hence, 32-bit float is what is doing it for me. No more fear of irreparable clipping.

 

[sastas]

I think I understand the academic benefit of 32-bit float, but I think the practical application of it is still lacking. As @Matt Hepworth said, 24-bit hasn't even been fully realized. I believe most (all?) plugins and DAWs process audio in 32-bit float these days, so we're really just talking about the input resolution. If you consider that the hardware we deal with doesn't have the ability to go beyond 144dB of dynamic range, there's probably not much point in having a device that claims it can capture in 32-bit float, because you're still working within the constraints of what the hardware can capture. The DAC can't capture/encode what's not there, right?

Quickly checked YouTube, here's an excellent demonstration, start at 7:20 minutes playtime:

 

[rodd]

Thanks @sastas. What I mean is, for the benefit of being able to scale the audio up and down (but mainly up), the hardware has to be able to capture it with sufficient bandwidth. Microphones and preamps have analog circuitry that requires a certain amount of signal to excite them and create an electrical signal that can then be converted to digital. For a single piece of equipment to support that huge dynamic range, especially at louder volumes, would mean it couldn’t also be sensitive at low volumes. It’s why mics and preamps have pads on them. So I guess if hardware starts being made super sensitive to record at low volume then it would be beneficial, but you’d have to have everything in the recording chain support it. We don’t always get to choose that the source volume is low, so mics could be a problem. A pad can help to a point, but probably not every situation. I may still be missing something though.

 

[sastas]

Thanks @sastas. What I mean is, for the benefit of being able to scale the audio up and down (but mainly up), the hardware has to be able to capture it with sufficient bandwidth. Microphones and preamps have analog circuitry that requires a certain amount of signal to excite them and create an electrical signal that can then be converted to digital. For a single piece of equipment to support that huge dynamic range, especially at louder volumes, would mean it couldn’t also be sensitive at low volumes. It’s why mics and preamps have pads on them. So I guess if hardware starts being made super sensitive to record at low volume then it would be beneficial, but you’d have to have everything in the recording chain support it. We don’t always get to choose that the source volume is low, so mics could be a problem. A pad can help to a point, but probably not every situation. I may still be missing something though.

Agreed. It's definitely NOT about scaling up, for that 24-bit single is fully sufficient. It's just about scaling down "accidents". But that's good enough for me, one worry less when recording, a guarantee for no unwanted, irreparable clipping during recording time And again, this is something that's been bothering me since 1992, for 31 years, so it's absolute worth for me going for 32-bit float recordings.