New UAD / Sonar user

[davidberry]

I recently purchased a couple of UAD1 cards and while I'm loving the plugins, I'm having serious issues. Getting CPU spikes and dropouts, even with the UAD cpu being as low as 25%. I have read some of the stuff about CPU munching on the Sonar forum but didn't see much here. Any happy Sonar users with UAD cards here?

My system is:

K8N Sli Pro MB
AMD64 3700
2GB Mem
UAD-1, UAD-1e (version 4.7)
Sonar 6.2.1
Firepod via PCI firewire

 

[billybk1]

Might be better to just read a few threads for some SONAR refugees who have found UAD-1 nirvana in an unexpected place:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread. ... ad-1+sonar

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread. ... ad-1+sonar

 

[davidberry]

Funny you mention that.. I'm there now reading up! :lol:

 

[Nightowl]

be sure to download and try the AMD Dual-Core Optimizer

 

[Matt Hepworth]

Doesn't look like he's using a dual core, so the optimizer will do nothing.

I've been running SONAR for nearly 7 years and for about 3 years with the UAD. UAD performance has improved quite a bit over the last couple years and I don't have any issues until I'm well over 80% card usage. When I'm there, I get the occasional weird glitches and pops, but no serious issues. When 6 first came out, I'd get the CPU munching, but the later updates resolved that for me.

 

[davidberry]

Wow.. I can't get near 80% without sonar's cpu going into the red. I have found the lowering the latency on my firepod helps. but not what I want to do. And yes.. not a dual core.

 

[billybk1]

Wow.. I can't get near 80% without sonar's cpu going into the red. I have found the lowering the latency on my firepod helps. but not what I want to do. And yes.. not a dual core.

I could never reliably & consistently get over 75%-80% DSP load with SONAR 6. Re-occurring issues would surface, such as native CPU munching, severe native CPU spiking, dropouts or the audio engine would not even engage. Also, many times when opening a project with many UAD-1 plugins (80% or more DSP load), the plugins would not get loaded back as they were saved, resulting in one or more cards getting DSP overload (over 100% on one cards). Many other performance issues like dropouts/severe gapping when playing through a loop region (once you pass the end loop point) , loss of PDC when using the Precision Multi-Band in a project with a VSTi and MIDI tracks or only being able to get down to 256 (5msec) sample project latency before you get crackling in the audio or dropouts during playback.

Amazingly, I get none of these issues in REAPER and can max out all (4) cards (90%-94% DSP) and still save and re-open without DSP overload onto one or more cards. I can even use lower project latencies like 128 samples or even 64 samples in some cases without crackling in the audio or dropouts. Total native CPU attributed to the UAD-1 plugins never gets above 5% even when maxing (30 or more plugins) out all (4) cards (90% DSP load or more). Just pure UAD-1 mixing bliss!

 

[winnie_pooh]

Re-occurring issues would surface, such as native CPU munching, severe native CPU spiking, dropouts or the audio engine would not even engage.

Billy,

have you ever tested this AUD.INI variable in Sonar?

[Aud]
RealtimePreroll=1

 

[billybk1]

Billy,

have you ever tested this AUD.INI variable in Sonar?

[Aud]
RealtimePreroll=1

Yes, I have it set as such and the performance in SONAR 6 is pretty
much the same. I still get the aforementioned issues. It seems SONAR 6 works better when using only one card or if you are not using a lot of DSP & latency intensive plugins. For most UAD-1 power users (multiple cards and lot's of UAD-1 plugins) SONAR does not behave so well at all.
Believe me, I have tried everything and been about as patient as I could be about getting these issues resolved once and for all.
I had been a SONAR user since SONAR 1.0 (faithfully, made every upgrade since) and probably was one of the first users to get a UAD-1 back in 2002. Unfortunately, many of the same UAD-1 issues that I had in SONAR 2.2 still exist in SONAR 6.2 and the latest word from Cake is this is the best they can do.
It was not an easy decision to make, but after I purchased the upgrade to SONAR 6 and I still had the same issues (even a few new ones), I started to look elsewhere for UAD-1 bliss. Which lead me to REAPER. After a number of users asked Justin (it's developer) to take a look at getting the native CPU munching (which at the time, back in February was pretty severe like in SONAR) and some assorted side issues fixed when using the UAD-1. He said he would take a look at it and actually borrowed a card from a REAPER user (via FedEx) and within a few weeks totally solved the native CPU munching enigma in REAPER! I could not believe it. What Cake and other developers have not solved in years, he did in a matter of weeks and posted the fix the same night.
I really have not used SONAR since (did take a stab @ 6.2, but still not much difference) and bascially joined the REAPER revolution and have not looked back. SONAR is still a great and very capable DAW host, but I would never recommend it for UAD-1 power users.

 

[winnie_pooh]

... Believe me, I have tried everything and been about as patient as I could be about getting these issues resolved once and for all...

Dear Billy,

I really have full respect regarding your thoughts and opinions because they seem to me always substantiated to a maximum possible extend which the whole internet lacks of IMHO and I really appreciate it!

As it stands today I built almost over 50 machines with mobos from ASUS and Intel with the famous P965 chipset (Core 2 Duo) but hesitated to test them for audio application and utilised another 25 notebooks from Toshiba called Satellite Pro 100 for office and CAD use without severe problems.

For my own use I’m still using my silly A8V Deluxe Athlon64 X2 4800 as stated elsewhere with 4 UAD-1 in a Magma 13-slot chassis together with RME HDSP Multiface/Digiface and RME Fireface 800 Sonar 6.2.1. The 4 UAD-1 4.7 are performing well and even better with the latest RME HDSP drivers 3.04.1 at 512ms without any hickups at the moment. Before 1024ms have been required to utilise 4x7 1176LN@44,1kHz/24bit – now I’m done with 512ms. With the new driver RME added an additional playback buffer which seem to help for mixdown. I haven’t nailed it down to zero because I updated yesterday but the first impression was that the whole thing works better now than before without using the new variable. The CPU use is like CPU1 13-15% CPU2 21-22% with no CPU munching during playback/mixdown.

The strange issue in the whole situation is that a one man show like the Reaper programmer is more capable to deal with fundamental programming issues which are hardware related than renowned software companies knowing everything.

I’m using Cakewalk since version 1.0 for Windows and enjoyed it most of the time except some irritations before the Sonar era. But nowadays I feel a little bit stupid still paying Cakewalk for expensive updates having this type of severe hardware problems instead of using Cubase/Nuendo/Reaper which would be the cheaper alternative to fit the bill. After all complains I have to admit that I was not in a position to test my existing audio hardware with the latest computer hardware I had my hands on but what should I do not having the required time – sometimes it is better to do nothing and stay with the approved stuff.

The programmer of Reaper shows the whole bunch of audio etc programmers where they are at today and IMHO this provocation is not nice to them. If they are clever which I really doubt they should take this as an example and hurry up.

Not getting too sentimental but please keep up with your thoughts and opinions I really like them.

Pooh

 

[B-San]

In terms of CPU munching, Sonar went from among the best, to dead worst due to UA dropping support for DXI!

This is a post from another thread in regards to testing the CPU munchiness of Sonar, Acid Pro, & Sonar when using the AUD-1s...

SONAR 6.2.1: 75%-83% DSP load before dropouts/crackling with a propensity for massive native CPU munching when pushing over 50% load.

ACID Pro 6d: 80-85% DSP load before dropouts/crackling with a propensity for major native CPU when pushing over 20% DSP load.

REAPER 1.865: 90%-95% DSP load before crackling in the audio (no dropouts, no native CPU munching, in fact native CPU usage is negligiblel).

When it comes to getting the most out of (4) UAD-1 cards with zero performance issues REAPER beats SONAR & ACID hands down!

Due to the DXI format in Sonar, I used to not worry too much about munching because I could push upwards of 95-98%!

But unfortunately, I'm in the process of switching from DXI to VST in Sonar 6.2... so after I read that post I had to run a test...

I took a finished mix of a song that I had done with the DXI versions of the UA plug-ins, re-inserted the plug-ins as VTS's and attempted to play the song... then….*AAARGH!!!* .. it happened... I had to freeze a gang of tracks until it was about a 50% load on the UA meter...

Very very disturbing, considering that when I play the original song (with DX plug-ins) it was pushing 95% and running smooth!

I'm running Sonar 6.2 on an ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard system, with 3.2 GHz P4, 2 GB RAM, Win XP Pro. The audio cards I am using are the Gina 3G and RME Multiface II. In addition to the 2 UDA-1 Cards, I am also using TC's Powercore fully stocked with 4 DSP cards.

I've been stranded with UA's v3.9.0 for the longest, due my apprehension towards undergoing the arduous task of saving every DX plug-in setting I've ever created as an FXP file, only to reload them back in the form of VSTz...

Well, upon the release of all the new stuff lately, I finally caved in and decided to make the jump to version 4.7... After a week of putting in at least 2 hrs a day (one day was 6hrs), I finally finished saving all of my 1587 plug-in settings as FXPz...

That’s right, OneTHOUSAND FiveHUNDRED andEightySeven!!!

...all in seperate folders within each Cakewalk session in respect to track/bus, after which, another folder was created according to sound, then named according to what plug-in being used and where it lies in the chain.... Too much fun!

All that hard work and this is what I get

:evil:

 

[Qwerty]

I'm running Sonar v6.2.1 with 2 x UAD on an Asus P5W DH Deluxe with 4Gb RAM and a E6400. I can easily and reliably go to about 90-95% UAD usage without native CPU munching or spiking. I use an RME FireFace 800 with the latest drivers. I have no problems with loading and re-loading projects and losing settings.

Occassionally, if I try to delete a plugin and then re-insert another -- say swap the 1081 for a 1081SE, then the UAD usage does not go down. To solve that, I disable all plugins on the UAD meter, turn off the audio engine in Sonar, delete and re-insert the offending plugin and then re-enable the plugins in the UAD meter.

Works fine.

This is NOT a generic Sonar issue. So said, Reaper is nice, but somewhat immature by comparison.

YMWV.

Q.

 

[billybk1]

I'm running Sonar v6.2.1 with 2 x UAD on an Asus P5W DH Deluxe with 4Gb RAM and a E6400. I can easily and reliably go to about 90-95% UAD usage without native CPU munching or spiking. I use an RME FireFace 800 with the latest drivers. I have no problems with loading and re-loading projects and losing settings.

Don't try to add another UAD-1 card then. I was doing alright (native CPU munching wise), until I added my 3rd & 4th UAD-1 cards. Now I consistantly get massive native CPU munching and serious CPU spiking
whenever I get over 50% DSP load and I stop & re-start playback several times, while mixng a project. I was also able to get 90-95% DSP usage when I had (2) cards, using SONAR 6. But, after I added my 3rd & 4th cards, it is more like 75%-87% tops. SONAR also does not like using UAD-1 plugins (especially 3 or 4 cards worth), at anything less than 256 sample (5.8msec) project latency, using 24/44. Sometimes, on a good day, you can get down to 384 samples (4.4msec), using a few UAD-1 plugins. I can consistantly get down to 128 samples (2.9msec) and even 64 samples (1.5msec) in REAPER using (4) cards.
But, is is not just those issues, there are many SONAR specific issues that are problematic when using UAD-1 plugins that you don't get in any other VST DAW host apps:

1) Dropouts and/or gapping when enabling and playing through a loop region.
2) Loss of PDC when using the Precision Multi-Band in a project with MIDI tracks. Yes, some of like using the PMB.
3) The LA-2A default values (40dB Gain/30dB Peak Reduction) are not preserved when opening an instance (you start all with all values MAXED out). I mean even Project 5 2.5.1 correctly opens the LA-2A to it's default values, why not SONAR.
4) UAD-1 plugins not getting scanned properly. Sometimes plugins don't have the "Enable Delay Compensation" parameter properly enabled or plugins that are in "demo" mode cause the scan process to stall or crash.

None of these issues occur in REAPER, even when using (4) cards (90-93% DSP load) and 30-50 UAD-1 plugins, in a project. Obviously, REAPER 1.875 is immature compared to SONAR 6.2.1 (advanced MIDI, ACT, Audio Snap, Synth Rack, etc) and overall, SONAR is a very powerful & capable DAW, there is no doubt about that. OTOH, I would never recommend it for UAD-1 power users. It simply has too many unresolved issues and no guarantee that they will ever be fixed. Especially, if the ball is left in UA's court.

 

[timmcallister]

I unfortunately found reaper about 1 hour after my last $170 Sonar upgrade.

Reaper gives me everything I need from Sonar, with the single exception being a \"full view\" channel strip. I'd like to see my plugs and what not in the \"mixer\" view.

At the same time, Reaper provides several things Sonar does not. Sonar provides folder in track view only, and if I recall, not much you can do with the folder to control all tracks within the folder.

Reaper provides extensive control over all included tracks within a folder, and, displays folders in mixer view. That alone has turned into a very valuable feature for me.

Reapers routing capabilities are far beyond what sonar can do. I haven't taken advantage of it yet, but I may.

I have a three card UAD system and Reaper clearly performs better than Sonar with UAD plugs.

So - I am straddling the fence right now. I hate to let Sonar go, but am growing fond of Reaper.


of course, it all comes down to what features and utility YOU need, but... If I were to repurchase from scratch today, there is NO QUESTION which way I would go. Can you say reaper?

 

[B-San]

I'm running Sonar v6.2.1 with 2 x UAD on an Asus P5W DH Deluxe with 4Gb RAM and a E6400. I can easily and reliably go to about 90-95% UAD usage without native CPU munching or spiking. I use an RME FireFace 800 with the latest drivers. I have no problems with loading and re-loading projects and losing settings.

Occassionally, if I try to delete a plugin and then re-insert another -- say swap the 1081 for a 1081SE, then the UAD usage does not go down. To solve that, I disable all plugins on the UAD meter, turn off the audio engine in Sonar, delete and re-insert the offending plugin and then re-enable the plugins in the UAD meter.

Works fine.

This is NOT a generic Sonar issue. So said, Reaper is nice, but somewhat immature by comparison.

YMWV.

Q.

Thank you for your insight... So there is hope for one like myself taking the plunge into the world of VST... One question: Are you using Windows XP SP2?

 

[imdrecordings]

Question of the day?

Which BIG/Expensive daw software company is going to be the first to hire Justin, as a consultant or developer?

 

[billybk1]

Question of the day?

Which BIG/Expensive daw software company is going to be the first to hire Justin, as a consultant or developer?

Absolutely ZERO chance, for one they could never afford him!

 

[billybk1]

Reaper gives me everything I need from Sonar, with the single exception being a "full view" channel strip. I'd like to see my plugs and what not in the "mixer" view.

Justin has posted that he intends to add that type of functionality once REAPER 2.0 rolls around next month. It is a popular FR on the REAPER forums. He has a lot of BIG plans in the coming months. All updates are free until version 2.99 (we are only on v1.875) We still have about another hundred or so free updates left till then though

 

[timmcallister]

Reaper gives me everything I need from Sonar, with the single exception being a "full view" channel strip. I'd like to see my plugs and what not in the "mixer" view.

Justin has posted that he intends to add that type of functionality once REAPER 2.0 rolls around next month. It is a popular FR on the REAPER forums. He has a lot of BIG plans in the coming months. All updates are free until version 2.99 (we are only on v1.875) We still have about another hundred or so free updates left till then though

I have heard this, and patiently await

 

[Matt Hepworth]

In terms of CPU munching, Sonar went from among the best, to dead worst due to UA dropping support for DXI!

Well, upon the release of all the new stuff lately, I finally caved in and decided to make the jump to version 4.7... After a week of putting in at least 2 hrs a day (one day was 6hrs), I finally finished saving all of my 1587 plug-in settings as FXPz...

That’s right, OneTHOUSAND FiveHUNDRED andEightySeven!!!

...all in seperate folders within each Cakewalk session in respect to track/bus, after which, another folder was created according to sound, then named according to what plug-in being used and where it lies in the chain.... Too much fun!

All that hard work and this is what I get

:evil:

I can feel your pain. I went through it a year ago. I also highly preferred the DX versions of the plug-ins, but times have changed. After getting all the settings transferred, I then began noticing a strange thing. The DX versions could run 1 extra LA-2A or equivalent. Several projects that were fine in DX gave me a "One or More Plug-Ins Have Been Disabled" error with VST. I had to disable, freeze, enable. PITA, for sure. Now, there's very little trouble for me. I was using my UAD-1 yesterday at 92-93% with no real issues. Usually 85-87% I start getting a few weird glitches and pops. I'm not sure what I did differently besides not using the 1176LN.

Overall, the UAD remains my mainstay for the "money" tracks on projects.