Sheepish Luna / AuxSend phase related inquiry

[sadkin]

I'm not really sure if this is a Luna exclusive thing but I have been sitting on this for awhile and I'm finally gonna just ask here, report my experience/issue and learn what I am (likely) doing wrong with what is pretty simple internal (ITB) routing. I also tried doing a 'keyword' search on this forum regarding this and couldn't find anything so I am sure it is something I am fouling up like a fool so here goes -

When I create a bus as an Aux return for effects and 'send' to that effect bus using the send pots from instrument channels, I generally find that flipping the phase on the Aux bus channel sounds 'better', more full - nearly 100% of the time. When I don't flip the phase on the fx bus channel the cumulative sound of the effect can best be described as - subtly emptier, subtly more hallow - perhaps a bit boxy. Flipping the phase corrects this to my ears.

I perceive this little 'phase' issue so consistently that I've stopped routing to effects like this and instead create separate busses with effects that I route to via instrument channel outputs - so that the instrument track is routed to both the Main out as well as to those busses which contain the effects, then simply blend the loudness of the effect by blending that buss' fader - no flipping of the phase required.

Yes, it makes sharing effects between multiple instruments tricky (and uncommon) but with the strength of the Mac Studio and my UAD DSP, I've been so far content enough to just create more busses with effects specific for anything I want to treat.

Also, to quickly clarify -
- yes, I am making absolutely sure effects are set to '100% wet'
- typically mixing in 96k
- using Cranesong HEDD as a master clock and have my Apollos slaved to it

I feel ridiculous reporting this experience and sharing something which should be totally elementary but, alas, I've simply not noticed it before in all my years. However, that said, Luna is the first DAW i've used where there aren't specific 'Aux Return' channels compared to all my years in Ableton (which prompts one to create Aux Return tracks). Instead, just creating busses in LUNA and simply choosing how one wants to route to said bus, be it via aux send or channel output. I think one day, unsatisfied, I just tried flipping the phase on an effect bus and suddenly heard the speakers pushing, the sound & effect become more full and pronounced and proceeded to work this way until more recently foregoing using Aux sends altogether.

Any insight, suggestions or tips? Anyone want to point and laugh? Let me have it.

 

[LesBrown]

I will definitely try flipping the phase. All effects, or specific type(s)? Delays, reverbs, modulation, etc?

I often output an instrument channel to an FX bus for that instrument, then to the main bus for that instrument (then to Mix Bus). But I do it for simplicity, when I am testing/combining/switching out crazier effects.

 

[Matt Hepworth]

The auxes have delay. If you're using 100% wet effects, this is, effectively, pre-delay, and mostly a non-issue. It's in the ballpark of 73 samples, but does vary by the specific Apollo combination by a sample or two. It's absolutely possible that flipping the polarity puts the effect return more to your liking. When recording vocalists I often flip the polarity and have them tell me which sounds best to them, since they're getting some comb filtering because of the physical sound vs the latent monitored sound. This is the same phenomena.

 

[slamthecrank]

I am trying to understand, but am a bit confused by what you're saying. Not sure what you are referring to as a bus or a send or an aux.

You said:

When I create a bus as an Aux return for effects and 'send' to that effect bus using the send pots from instrument channels

Are you using the term "aux" the same as "bus" in this scenario?

Let's say I had a vocal channel. I create a stereo "bus" from the drop down menu and put a reverb on it; I send some of the signal from the vocal to the reverb bus.

Both of these channels (the vocal and the reverb) are output to the "Main".

Is the reverb-bus the part where you are hearing out of phase effects?

The auxes have delay. If you're using 100% wet effects, this is, effectively, pre-delay, and mostly a non-issue.

I'm not seeing this in Luna -- For example, I often send a vocal to a parallel bus with full on 100% effect, but I'm not getting a delay or phase issue. Although, I do sometimes check the polarity on the parallel bus, I can't remember the last time I actually had to keep the polarity flipped.

 

[LesBrown]

hearing out of phase effects

As I understand, he is simply saying it sounds better to him when the phase is flipped on the bus.

 

[klasaine]

I experimented yesterday flipping phase on a few busses/auxes and I didn’t hear any difference.

 

[sadkin]

I am trying to understand, but am a bit confused by what you're saying. Not sure what you are referring to as a bus or a send or an aux.

You said:

Are you using the term "aux" the same as "bus" in this scenario?

Let's say I had a vocal channel. I create a stereo "bus" from the drop down menu and put a reverb on it; I send some of the signal from the vocal to the reverb bus.

Both of these channels (the vocal and the reverb) are output to the "Main".

Is the reverb-bus the part where you are hearing out of phase effects?



I'm not seeing this in Luna -- For example, I often send a vocal to a parallel bus with full on 100% effect, but I'm not getting a delay or phase issue. Although, I do sometimes check the polarity on the parallel bus, I can't remember the last time I actually had to keep the polarity flipped.

Actually, routing the effects to a parallel bus is the way to go for me now - it is what I was trying to say but lacked the term 'parallel bus'. I never have any of the issues using fx this way.

It is when I create a bus, add an effect (100% wet) then send signal to that bus from an aux send originating from another instrument channel that I have perceived phase symptoms. I find this a bit odd as I view this latter routing config to be more 'traditional', for lack of better term.

Running dynamics processing in parallel is all fine and good but using parallel routing also for fx like reverb, delay and modulation seems more unusual to me but it is what I do now, more often and again, seems to have better sounding results to me.

 

[AlexR]

It is when I create a bus, add an effect (100% wet) then send signal to that bus from an aux send originating from another instrument channel that I have perceived phase symptoms. I find this a bit odd as I view this latter routing config to be more 'traditional', for lack of better term.

Generically speaking I never had phase issues when routing to a buss in parallel or via aux send, but...... there's have been a few instances in which I heard phasing/cancellation. Flipping the phase helped but it wasnt the perfect fix, so I just opted in switching the processing in the parallel bus to something else.
I believe the issue had to so with plugin processing and maybe additional uncompensated latency that created the phase issues.

 

[slamthecrank]

Generically speaking I never had phase issues when routing to a buss in parallel or via aux send, but...... there's have been a few instances in which I heard phasing/cancellation. Flipping the phase helped but it wasnt the perfect fix, so I just opted in switching the processing in the parallel bus to something else.
I believe the issue had to so with plugin processing and maybe additional uncompensated latency that created the phase issues.

That makes sense, but only if you are using a DAW without delay compensation. The OP mentioned they were using Luna, which is definitely compensated. (although Console does have some latency on the aux channels, which I think is what Matt was referring to??)

 

[AlexR]

That makes sense, but only if you are using a DAW without delay compensation. The OP mentioned they were using Luna, which is definitely compensated. (although Console does have some latency on the aux channels, which I think is what Matt was referring to??)

this happened to me in Luna, not using console, straight Luna