Signal chain for recording flugelhorn

[ThomasS]

Hi Guys! I’m new in the forum so apogies if this has been already discussed in the forum! (tried to search though)

I’m planning to record a flugelhorn (Andy Taylor Phat boy if of interest) with my Apollo twin. I’m planning to use U87ai for the purpose but also a small condenser and SM7b is at disposal.. so the key question: what kind of signal chain would you propose?

Initially was planning to use 610B + 1176 + LA2A (then probably some reverb - Lexicon 224 etc) but definitely open for suggestions. Also curios if you have good experience with Neves.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[UA_User]

That's can be a tough one to record.

In my experience a good ribbon mic can work wonders here.

What sort of music is this, what role does the instrument play in the arrangement, etc?

 

[ThomasS]

That's can be a tough one to record.

In my experience a good ribbon mic can work wonders here.

What sort of music is this, what role does the instrument play in the arrangement, etc?

Hi there! Thx for reply. It would be bossa nova and the intrument will play a lead role. Unfortunately ribbon is out of reach at the moment..

 

[bellows and brass]

Start with a good mic and a clean preamp.
Dont over think it, nor overpopulate the input chain with dynamic processing
it is a brass instrument whose sound emanates from a single point in space. How hard can it be?
if you don’t like the sound for whatever reason change something.…Distance off, mic type, mic pattern, even angle to mic on a cardioid.
sometimes dynamic mics can sound better on brass, but suck it and see.

 

[UA_User]

Dont over think it, nor overpopulate the input chain with dynamic processing

Compressors are a great way to ruin a solo brass, unless one is real sure of what they are doing. Depends heavily on playing style too.

 

[klasaine]

U87 6” to 8” from the bell. Start there but move it around until it sounds like you want it.
610b or straight into Apollo.
Do not print compression.
As for reverb, on a Bossa - I’d go with a plate (at least to start).

*If you’re gonna be recording a fair amount of brass, a ribbon mic is something to look into.

 

[JohnR1]

Like klasaine recommends. start with dynamic mic 6-8" back and maybe just a an inch off center toward the outer part of the bell. Straight into Apollo, no compression, no eq, maybe some non-print reverb (small or med. Hall and pre-delay) on an aux if the ambience supports the player. Depending on the room the 87Ai in omni 6, 8, 10 feet out might make for a nice blend. You can always not use it. I would gain it around -12 to -20dbfs on the record channel and watch peaks, YMMV.

 

[bellows and brass]

I got inspired to dust of both the flugel and the ribon mics. Discovered one of them is busted and will need a service. That's what happens with owning a L22 mic.

Unison slot was inhabited by 610B.
No compresion or eq used pre or post, just a bit of autotune because my flugel sucks and can only play one note in tune.

 

[slamthecrank]

I’m planning to use U87ai

I think the most important thing in your recording chain is going to be choosing the correct microphone, especially since the Flugelhorn will be playing the lead role.

And while the U87ai is a fine mic indeed, it would probably be the last mic I would reach for in this case. The U87ai is a very bright microphone. (to my ear, it borders on the definition of shrill). If you had access to a vintage U87, that'd be a fine choice, but that a whole different microphone than the "ai" variation.

The SM7b might be a better choice if those are the only two you have at the ready. From there, a UA 610B mic pre would be a good choice. You asked if anyone had good experiences with "Neve", and of course - a Neve could work wonderfully in this context as well. (but the 610 would probably have more 'oomph')

PS - might not be the sound you're looking for, but the (in)famous Chuck Mangione 'Feels So Good' album used two different mics according Stillman Kelly (one of the engineers). One was a Beyerdynamic M160, which is a ribbon, and the other was an SM57, a dynamic. I made a mental note of the Beyerdynamic when I heard this because I'd previously associated it with Billy Joel's vocal recordings. It's a good mic, especially for guitars and loud instruments.

 

[JamesNorth]

I did a live recording in Tokyo in a tiny jazz club about a year ago and I used an SE V Beat mic (a tom / snare mic) on the fluglehorn and it worked really well (sample attached). I think for some feedback while playing I used the UAD Pure Plate on an Aux and sent that back through the PA but didn't record it.

@slamthecrank is spot on - not all mics (even expensive ones) are right for all jobs. The U87ai may not give you the tone that works in the mix without work ... and that could be detrimental to the tone of the instrument.

 

[bellows and brass]

What is important for a horn player doing overdubs, is the headphone mix, or should i say what they hear.
When I recorded that ditty, I didn't actualy make a headphone mix... I simply used open back headphones for the bass and drums replay, and the sound of the flugel to my ears was exactly the same as it was with no cans (in the room). All I had to do was set gain on the cans and I was set
None of that horrible sound transmission through the jawbone you get with closed back cans, that needs shitloads of gain to overcome.
More gain equals quicker fatigue.

 

[yve]

I think the condenser microphone recommendations are very good, and a c414 will certainly produce a good result too.
But there is also the option of dynamic Microphones, especially for horns, with an EV Re 20 or Sennheise 441, they are great, warm, airy, no harshness.
I wouldn't compress/EQ when recording, afterwards offers you more options.( if you have the neve 1073 just for mic preamp caracter i would do, but discret, EQ activated, but no EQing)
I used the VoxBox from Manley for Compressing an EQ, it is great for horns, very warm, lots of air, I used it for tenor saxophone and trombone and would do it again. But in the end, its the music, that counts.

 

[ThomasS]

Thanks for super helpful replies! I guess this tells a lot about the quality of this forum & members.

I already did the first try with the U87. I think the result was OK but the sample from B&B above sounds clearly better with ribbon (obviously player and room treatment affects a lot as well ). However, going without an unison preamp or recorded compressors/eq’s etc was definitely the right call. I have now added a very slow and only slight compression to balance out too much dynamics in the recording (or is there another way to do this?) + reverb and I’m quite happy with the result.

 

[ThomasS]

I think the most important thing in your recording chain is going to be choosing the correct microphone, especially since the Flugelhorn will be playing the lead role.

And while the U87ai is a fine mic indeed, it would probably be the last mic I would reach for in this case. The U87ai is a very bright microphone. (to my ear, it borders on the definition of shrill). If you had access to a vintage U87, that'd be a fine choice, but that a whole different microphone than the "ai" variation.

The SM7b might be a better choice if those are the only two you have at the ready. From there, a UA 610B mic pre would be a good choice. You asked if anyone had good experiences with "Neve", and of course - a Neve could work wonderfully in this context as well. (but the 610 would probably have more 'oomph')

PS - might not be the sound you're looking for, but the (in)famous Chuck Mangione 'Feels So Good' album used two different mics according Stillman Kelly (one of the engineers). One was a Beyerdynamic M160, which is a ribbon, and the other was an SM57, a dynamic. I made a mental note of the Beyerdynamic when I heard this because I'd previously associated it with Billy Joel's vocal recordings. It's a good mic, especially for guitars and loud instruments.

I found this pretty nice comparison of mics for flugelhorn by Sweetwater: https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/best-mics-for-flugelhorn-take-a-listen/

Based on the above, I would probably even favor SM7 over U87 sound, but the condensers are not bad there with a great player & room.

I happen to have that Chuck’s album and actually the sound there (which is fabolous) could be very close what I’m looking for!

 

[bellows and brass]

I might add.. I don’t have a great room, and I was too lazy to get out the mic clip for the mic, a very heavy old rca bk5, so I just sat it on the desk in the company of an iMac, monitors and other reflective items.
That’s the good thing about cardioid dynamic mics.
They are so forgiving.
I started the recording with an old beaten up pub-spec sm 58 , and it pretty much sounded the same.

For all the gear and room talk, the two biggest tonal changes come from the player.
For the demo , I played soft and close, emphasising the lower frequencies.

The other change, and one that invites more opinions and has started more bar fights than mic choice, is the mouthpiece.(don’t ever get into conversation about mouthpieces. Life is too short)
That is probably beyond the realm of a recording engineer to adjust, but if a flugelhorn sounds too bright or too dark in the room, that’s what you’ve got to work with.

 

[Joe Porto]

I did a live recording in Tokyo in a tiny jazz club about a year ago and I used an SE V Beat mic (a tom / snare mic) on the fluglehorn and it worked really well (sample attached). I think for some feedback while playing I used the UAD Pure Plate on an Aux and sent that back through the PA but didn't record it.

@slamthecrank is spot on - not all mics (even expensive ones) are right for all jobs. The U87ai may not give you the tone that works in the mix without work ... and that could be detrimental to the tone of the instrument.

Interesting on the tom mic. I recorded a Harp and Flugelhorn duo a while back and of all the mics in the locker, the flugelist(?) preferred an ATM-25, which is primarily a kick/tom mic. In fact he ended up buying the mic from me after the session.

Sweetwater has a Flugelhorn shootout with a ton of mics.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/best-mics-for-flugelhorn-take-a-listen/

 

[klasaine]

Sweetwater has a Flugelhorn shootout with a ton of mics.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/best-mics-for-flugelhorn-take-a-listen/

And the U87ai sounds great.
Though my fave in that shootout is the Beyer m160.

 

[JamesNorth]

Interesting on the tom mic. I recorded a Harp and Flugelhorn duo a while back and of all the mics in the locker, the flugelist(?) preferred an ATM-25, which is primarily a kick/tom mic. In fact he ended up buying the mic from me after the session.

Sweetwater has a Flugelhorn shootout with a ton of mics.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/best-mics-for-flugelhorn-take-a-listen/

Yeah in this case I used it because it was the most appropriate from the collection of mics I took with me … but I’d reach for it before a bight mic (LDC) anytime. I’ve even used those ones on ukulele before with excellent results.

Horns are kind of bright sounding as it is … so doubling up on that generally goes against my general goal - to match complementary mics with the timbre of the source.

Any of those little Beyer ribbons are very nice too. I had some nice ones a while back that were modded and sold them regrettably!

 

[JamesNorth]

Your Apollo likely accommodates recording a processed (limited) signal via a Console Aux ch., while
simultaneously taking an unprocessed path directly via the Console input channel.

Good tip - only works for non-unison slots though ... the unison ones print regardless

 

[UA_User]

I have now added a very slow and only slight compression to balance out too much dynamics in the recording (or is there another way to do this?)

In the specific circumstance that you're playing a part with a lot of aggressive attacks and giving it some strong lip, you can enhance it by compressing it like you would a percussive vocal. That is, envelope shaping.