space/depth

[caineguitars]

looking for tips on how to create space/width/depth in a recording
i am recording a rock band with les paul/marshall set up with a pod xt pro for bass and v-drums with drumkit from hell superior, se electronics 2200a mic with voicemaster pro pre amp for vox and guitar amp,motu 2408mk3 with pc cubase and a uad,

my recordings seem as flat as a pancake compared to pro cd`s
it`s not the volume but the fullness and apparent space

please help

 

[Dragonsf]

I'm achieving space with the Realverb and Roland Dimension.
Fullness/presence with the L2A2.

 

[boody]

Hi, here's the way I do it.

try to focus the instr to a certain spot with comp-eq-panning; use a stereo ambiance (realverb will do) to create the left and right side of your space, a hall or other long reverb to create the roof and the rear corners of your space and a mono reflection (rs-1) to create the back wall of your space. Use all these reverbs on a bus and choose send settings for each instr according to the position you want to give them.

example: rhythm guitar - cut low/high end you don't need, use compression to make it compact and focussed, use a little eq to make it sound right, pan it to the right position, add the mono rs1 to move it to the back, add a bit hall and ambiance to 'feel' the surounding space.
If all went well you can 'see' the guitar on the exact spot between your speakers where you placed it.

goodluck
Budy

 

[caineguitars]

like what i`m hearing there budy
some good ideas there

 

[T-Dogg]

Definately focus on early reflections and ambience settings. Bob Katz's book has some good information on how the ear interprets early reflections to form spacial relationships.

First try to capture the natural room ambience while recording -- when done well this will give you the best sense of depth. It's all about careful listening and mic positioning, and of course a decent room... If you're looking for that raw, old school dry Les Paul rock band sound then the above is absolute best way to do it. If ya have a hard time getting real ambience happening in your studio, then carefully setup plugs can get ya in the ballpark. Drums are in the box, so obviously plugs will be the only option there, but give natural room ambience a shot on the guitars since those will be mic'd up...Just remember, a bunch of mono sources panned around will give you brick wall of stereo spread, but it won't create a sense of depth. For that use ambience and frequency manipulation (the ear suffers from proximity effects sorta like a mic does, so rolling off the high and low frequencies on a source can make it appear farther away... )

 

[tunetown]

here a quote from Jazar in the UK..........

\"When it comes to distance placement (and the other two subtle effects in this article - creating mix room, and auto mix leveling) we are now getting into the realm of subtle equalization that is rarely documented - but yet frequently used - by sound engineers.
You may have tried to create positioning and distance in a mix previously simply by the use of reverb and other room simulation effects. If you've tried this then you've no doubt also discovered that this doesn't really work very well, and your mix ends up a soggy mess.
This is partly because the effect of distance placement in EQ is also closely related to a phenomenon known as \"proximity effect\" which most directional microphones and the human ear, and even sound dispersion itself - all exhibit as a matter of course. I'm using the term \"proximity effect\" here in a wider sense than it is normally used. Let me explain further:
When a performer comes close - perhaps even too close - to a microphone (or your ear!), then two things happen. Firstly, the amount of bass frequencies goes sky-high (often called bass tip-up), because there is much less bass \"loss\" at close range, and - more significantly - the physics of cardioid microphones overemphasizes this effect.
Secondly, the high-frequency content also goes up too - because distance of sound in air tends to absorb high frequencies.
As a sound engineer, you can exploit this phenomenon in your mixes. By unnaturally boosting both the high and low frequencies using the EQ controls in your mixing console, you can create a sound that appears to be much closer than it really is.
However, this proximity effect is overused in many recordings today, leading to mixes that sound too \"hi-fi\".
Remember, it is also possible to do the complete opposite, and thin instruments out a bit (shelve off some bass and a little off the top end), in order to push them back into the mix and seem smaller and further away.
The real secret of mixing, is in the \"light and shade\" - contrasting one part against another. By carefully using EQ in the form of subtle high and low balancing - coupled with very short reverb - as a tool for instrument placement, using the illusion of distance, you can make your mixes sound significantly \"larger\" overall than if you try and make every part simply sound \"big\" in its own right.
Big only seems \"big\" because other things seem small - it's easy to forget this in the excitement of mixing.\"

Not sure where I got the article from but it is a good read.

Cheers

 

[brian]

boody & tunetown have some great advice on this matter. The key lies in subtle use of delays or early-reflections, along with the right gain/EQ adjustments. If you are not careful with your use of reverb, you can quickly muddy up a mix and make it seem less 3-D. You might want to experiment with only having 1 or 2 elements being sent to a big verb, pushing those to the back. EQ out some top and bottom on these elements, and lower the gain until they seem far back enough in the mix. For the other sources, rely on short delays or ERs.

Dreamverb has a great ER section, that can be used without activating the tail. This is a great tool for positioning instruments inside a space. Since you are using DFHS, you already have access to an ambient room mic sound. Processing this room mic with EQ/compression will yield much better results than using an artificual reverb for drums (in my experience). Setup a dedicated drum/percussion verb that you can send your snare/toms to. Try timing the decay and pre-delay to match the tempo of your song. Also play with the \"Amb Corr\" setting in DFHS; it adjusts the delay of the ambient mic signal, which can be used to make the drum room sound tighter or larger and deeper.

How are you micing your Marshall? It is usually easy for me to get a great guitar sound using one close mic (SM57 or MD421, or both) mixed with a room mic (I miss having a Royer 121 for this ). For the room mic, a figure-8 pattern works well for giving the guitar sound some width. If you have a relatively dry guitar sound, try panning it to one side and have a short delay/verb panned to the opposite side. Mix this delayed signal relatively low in volume, and play with the delay time to acheive the width/depth you are looking for.

Want more width on your bass? Try sending the mono bass signal to two tracks, and pan them slightly L/R, leaving your kick drum in the center. Alternatively, setup a send with a HPF around 150-300Hz feeding a chorus. This way the chorus will ignore the lower frequencies which do not have many directional cues, but it will spread out the upper frequencies in the bass.

For vocals, experiment a lot with reverbs and delays. Even in harder rock songs where you don't want lush/deep vocals, subtle useage will make the vocal more \"3-D\". Try using 2 reverbs; 1 for ambience or ERs, and one with a smooth tail. Vary the ratio between the 2 verbs to get the depth you want. You can automate these sends too, so that the vocals are more up-front in certain parts. Also try using a simple slap-back delay on the vocals, or automating a longer delay send, adding echo to the end of phrases or on key words. Another fun thing to try is having the vocal delay (mono) slightly to the R, and the vocal verb (mono) slightly to the L.

If you need certain things to really stand out and be up front, don't apply ANY verb to them. Try being more aggressive with compression and use additive EQ somewhere between 2.5kHz to 6kHz to increase the presence. EQ even higher up (8-12kHz) if you want something to be extra crisp.

Hope some of this is helpful...

 

[boody]

great tips Brian 8)

Want more width on your bass? Try sending the mono bass signal to two tracks, and pan them slightly L/R, leaving your kick drum in the center. EQ even higher up (8-12kHz) if you want something to be extra crisp.

About the bass thing; in this case you should treat 1 of the bass channels with a detune/delay or something, otherwise you just end up mono again. Dunno about the effect of that though.
To suggest 'nearness' a boost around 16khz and 80hz will help...

Regards
Budy

 

[yaknski]

Great thread!