Suggestions? How To Compare Elephant With PLim

[Suntower]

Hi,

I've been happily using Elephant for a couple of years now and been pleased. I tried PLim when it came out but it didn't seem that much better than Elephant so I forgot about it. But lately I've started to wonder again as I am trying to get -clearer- mixes and I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Elephant can add to low-mid mud just a -bit-.

So UA was kind enough to give me another 14 day extension on PLim and I'm sitting here trying to A/B Elephant and PLim. So far, it's a bit frustrating trying to hear the difference---mainly because the controls are a bit different.

I must say that, so far, I really don't hear -much- difference at all.

So... Can people who -have- given them a fair comparison, give me some tips on:
a) What to listen for?

b) Some suggested settings that demonstrate the differences clearly?

Like I said, it's tough for me to hear a difference right now. Am I missing something? Tin ear?

TIA!!!!

---JC

 

[Suntower]

No one?



---JC

 

[TheHopiWay]

Like every thing in the world of audio it's entirely subjective. The only applicable valid test is if to listen and then to decide whether you like it or not. Nothing else matters.
Always keep in mind we're not curing cancer here. We're just making personal decisions about how we prefer air should vibrate for a given moment in time.

 

[Suntower]

Well said.

I just recall everyone making a big whoop about PLim when it first came out and I do believe there were many comparisons with Elephant, so I was hoping some of those same correspondents would avail me of their conclusions. I'm trying to learn to hear better and I always like to try and hear things the way people here, hear. If you hear what I'm saying.

Thanks,

---JC

Like every thing in the world of audio it's entirely subjective. The only applicable valid test is if to listen and then to decide whether you like it or not. Nothing else matters.
Always keep in mind we're not curing cancer here. We're just making personal decisions about how we prefer air should vibrate for a given moment in time.

 

[Mark Edmonds]

I used most of my PLim demo time up by A/Bing it against Elephant and the Elemental Audio Finis limiter.

Easy one first: EA Finis is poor! Don't even waste your time downloading the demo. Even on mild limiting, the artifacts are bad. It is almost unusable.

Regarding PLim and Elephant, I basically just compared them by progressively smashing a few mixes until they gave in. To be honest, I really couldn't tell a difference between them but sometimes I felt (in other words, probable psycho-acoustic effect) that Elephant might be a bit more soufflé-ish, lighter in sound - IOW, the opposite of what you are thinking!

It was only when I tried a completely artificial test - heavy limiting on a classical recording - that I found the extra flexibility in Elephant enabled a more artifact free sound. However, in real life, no one is going to do that. It is an interesting test though - smash a baroque orchestra as far as you can in each limiter and see which one can go futher!

So, I came to the conclusion that they are both pretty much the same with PLim having the advantage of being quicker and easier to use (also with the excellent UA GUI) and Elephant having extra flexibility in some situations but saddled by the quirky \"freeware-style\" Voxengo GUI.

I think you are dancing on a pin JC. These are both excellent limiters. Do you really need both?

Mark

 

[Mark Edmonds]

To be honest, I really couldn't tell a difference between them but sometimes I felt (in other words, probable psycho-acoustic effect) that Elephant might be a bit more soufflé-ish, lighter in sound - IOW, the opposite of what you are thinking!

Mark

And why do I think that was psycho-acoustics at work?

Because the UA GUI is dark, mostly black and the Voxengo GUI is light. There is a definite mental link between colour and sound.

Mark

 

[daverich]

the different limiting modes in elephant do effect bass differently.

L3 mode definately leaves a mix more bassy than the others - whether it's boosting the bass or the others take it out I'm not sure.

Try the other modes.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

 

[lazlominimart]

It's a very, very fine line between the two. I prefer the GUI if PL, of course, but there are some excellent features in the Elephant plug... dithering, oversampling, very flexible DC filters, etc.

I could live with either (in fact, I live with both!).

 

[diggo]

here's a set of pics where someone analysed the output of some software limiters:

http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

and here's some more examples by Alexey Lukin (not Voxengo's Alexey Vaneev):

http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/temp/WavesL2.png
http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/temp/WavesL3.png
http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/temp/Ozone.png
http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/temp/Elephant.png
http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/temp/Elephant4x.png

The big difference in the tests appears to be Elephant in upsampling mode, possibly due to insertion of an anti-aliasing filter during downsampling. But that is not a total explanantion. The other limiters all exhibit typical artifacts associated with the fact that dynamics processing is non-linear: those high frequency aliased harmonics have to go somewhere, and downward (\"fold-down\") aliasing is a possible explanation. The difference in the artifacts produced is part of what determines the \"musicality\" of the limiter. The nature of the artifacts produced is (at least partly) related to the release characteristics of the limiting algorithm (ie the side chain gain control time constants).

Further explanation may also consider intermodulation between the test tone and the sampling rate frequency, resulting in another \"type\" of non linearity. But aliasing due to harmonics outside of the passband is probably more likely, which may be why Elephant has no artifacts below the original frequency (aliasing above the original frequency is only removed by the anti-aliasing filter if it extends beyond the final passband, thus preventing fold-down aliasing below the original frequency)

I havent seen a spectra of Precision Limiter in similar circumstances, but I dont particularly care to, either.
I dont really think the preceding analysis examples are the appropriate way to determine the quality of a digital limiter.
That said, they do tell us something, I guess. I certainly had a good listen to Elephant in 4x mode after seeing these tests.

Limiters ALL have their own sound.
The type of limiting depends very much on the type of audio being processed.
What matters most is what the user LIKES.
Everything else is just conversation....

Sean

 

[Cabbage]

I agree that the tests really don't say much, unless you know that you have a similar release times and release characteristics. Increasing the release time will always get you a perfect result!

Maybe Voxengo should have a look at why there is such a difference between the different oversampling modes? Does the oversampling change the release in some way?

I have both Elephant and PLim, and I think Elephant sounds brighter and crunchier. But I don't really use either a whole lot. It seems I get smoother results from PLim, but it could also be a metering issue. I havn't made any serious comparisons.

Petter

 

[Suntower]

Thanks to all for replying.

There is something in PLim in the low mid/hi bass that sounds better (flatter) to me than Elephant but it's so subtle it may be placebo. Hell, it may simply be that the GUI -looks- less 'fluffly'. In any case, it's -really- subtle and not worth $199 to -me- since I don't do mastering.

I hate to ask something that I know was answered when PLim came out, but, unfortunately, I could never get the \"Search\" feature to work.

Thanks again...

---JC

 

[jcat]

I hate to ask something that I know was answered when PLim came out, but, unfortunately, I could never get the "Search" feature to work.

Thanks again...

---JC

Hows about these apples!

http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/vie ... php?t=3790

:idea:


Cheers,

jcat

 

[Paul Woodlock]

Greetings JC

Just saying hello, as we haven't spoke for a while. Hope ya well sir