Tube is not the only way around.

[azulay]

I've had the 6176 (610+ 1176) for a year now and was absolutely blown
away by it at first, using it mainly for vox, acoustics gutiars, cabinets
stuff like that.

8 Months ago I bought the 4110 solid state preamps. I mainly used it
for drums. They blew me away at the moment I've put Kick & Snare through. Now something about preamps in a row makes them look unsuitable for vocals.

Man I was wrong. I was tracking vocals the other day for this production
I'm doing for a female singer/songwriter. Got the U87 plugged into the
4110 preamp and was absolutely AMAZED at how good this things sounds
on vocals. Its present, livid, colorful, strong, exaggerated at the right spots yet transperant, warm, accurate, dynamic, etc, etc...

And I grew up playing guitar so I thougt tubes were god.
Not that there's anything wrong about the 610, but I'll never underestimate solid-state ever again. (and track vocals with anything
else than my 4110).

 

[BTLG]

Yeah, tubes can be great on some things, but I'm so in love with solid state mic pre's these days. API 512C's are more or less my desert island mic pre's these days. They'll sound good an just about anything.

I haven't tried the UA stuff, it's not cost effective enough for me in comparison to what I could spend on some far more versatile mic pres.

Matt

 

[Soundawg]

Yeah, tubes can be great on some things, but I'm so in love with solid state mic pre's these days. API 512C's are more or less my desert island mic pre's these days. They'll sound good an just about anything.

I haven't tried the UA stuff, it's not cost effective enough for me in comparison to what I could spend on some far more versatile mic pres.

Matt

I'm lost here - what do you mean by "far more versatile mic pres"... the 4110 has three different voices, and for added versatility it has a volume master for each channel so you can hit the pres hard while still taking it easy on the AD... To acomplish this with the single voiced API, you need to purchase something like this http://www.adesignsaudio.com/atty.htm in order to enjoy the full potential.

Am I missing something?

I was looking at API but these 4110 and 8110 look good.

I haven't done all the math because I be broke and not in the market just yet... however... what is the price of a lunch box with 4 APIs and 4 Attys - vs - one UA 4110?

Soundawg.

 

[BTLG]

what i mean is that an API will sound great on anything, and there's only one knob to deal with. Drums, vox, guitar, acoustic, violins, piano, etc.

at $625 a module they can't be beat on price point. A 6 space lunchbox/4 modules will run about the same price as the UA and you've got room to expand/customize it.

I haven't heard the UA pre's, but nothing about them entices me to either.

 

[BTLG]

oh, and screw the ATTY's, just hit the pad button.

 

[Soundawg]

oh, and screw the ATTY's, just hit the pad button.

These are two completly different things.

Many threads on this to explain... see one of them here... http://www.gearslutz.com/board/show...039829391a9a073be5&t=91454&highlight=api+atty

:lol:

 

[Soundawg]

OK - I dug very lightly, please tell me if I'm way off...

UA 4110 = $2999.00


API 512c = $625.00 x 4 (trusting above mentioned price point here)
Lunch Box = $425.00
ATTY = $125.00 x 2 ...total =$3175.00

or

API 3124 = $2795.00
ATTY = $125.00 x 2 ...total =$3045.00


So price - for the same functionality - to me is a non issue.

API seems to be more 'popular', and has a huge following... these 4110s are new, but UA is not new - and no reason to think their new toys wont kill... is there?

I tell ya - I don't know what to say - till ya hear them side by side -wadaya gonna do?

:idea: anybody do this?

 

[BTLG]

I've found that solid state mic pres sounds like crap when you slam them on the input, correct? Ever slam an SSL on input? the sound is TERRIBLE. Neves are a different beast, but even they can only take so much in before it becomes garbage out.

It seems like the ATTY is simply a channel on a line level mixer (or at least serves that function). I wouldn't really want to add that gain stage into a digital medium if it was necessary.

What mic pre's do you have experience with?

 

[imdrecordings]

I've found that solid state mic pres sounds like crap when you slam them on the input, correct? Ever slam an SSL on input? the sound is TERRIBLE. Neves are a different beast, but even they can only take so much in before it becomes garbage out.

It seems like the ATTY is simply a channel on a line level mixer (or at least serves that function). I wouldn't really want to add that gain stage into a digital medium if it was necessary.

What mic pre's do you have experience with?

Matt

I might trade or sell my OSAs & API 312s pres for a 8110.. not much difference..

The UA stuff lets you see and adjust the in and out .... Sounds like and if not better.. than API stuff. Moer versatile.

8110 is awesome... add that to some 610s.. POW have you ever demoed one..?

 

[Soundawg]

I've found that solid state mic pres sounds like crap when you slam them on the input, correct? Ever slam an SSL on input? the sound is TERRIBLE. Neves are a different beast, but even they can only take so much in before it becomes garbage out.

It seems like the ATTY is simply a channel on a line level mixer (or at least serves that function). I wouldn't really want to add that gain stage into a digital medium if it was necessary.

What mic pre's do you have experience with?

Me thinks my point is getting missed here, what I mean is that pres tend to have a sweet spot, (right before they sound like shit) I don't have experience with many, but all pres that I do know share this trait. In fact, I am getting an ATTY to go with my AD-2022 for this very same reason...
When I get the preamp gain turned up to where it really has some balls - the output is too much level for my Fireface... ATTY = fixed!

Having said this, the cranked pre sound is not always best, but without the ATTY I only have access to half the colors my AD 2022 has to offer.

AFAIK all pres work this way, just some have more output control than others... and some have none.

The only way to realize the full soundscape your pres have to offer - is to have a level control on the back end. Right?

 

[Soundawg]

imdrecordings - you got one of these 8110s? Any problems with heat? I heard there may have been an issue?

 

[BTLG]

It sounds more like you've got a problem in your line level at the input of the RME. You may be sending a +4 dBu signal to a -10 dBv input. If that's the case, the ATTY might help, but you're compromising your noise floor quite a bit. A cheaper/more effective solution might be to look into getting a balancing box to step the signal down from the mic pre.

Check out the Ebtech Line Level Shifter. $250 gets you 8 channels. It'll convert your +4 level down to a -10, and your problem will be solved.

I don't think it's true that a level control after the mic pre is aways necessary. Sure, it's great on my Great River because it drives the output transformer, but I wouldn't see the point on an API. The general tendency I see in our clients (and these people are NOT hacks) is to bypass the console on the way in and take it straight from the mic pre ---> converter ---> pro tools. Why add the extra gain stage?

IMD - no, I haven't checked out the UA mic pres. No reference as to them being good or bad, I just haven't had any reason to. I don't think the 312 is a fair comparison to the 512. I've used the 3124 before, and it sounds a bit more mid rangy and grainy to me. The 512's have a much nicer high end to them and handle dynamic music a lot better.

To each their own, just my 2 cents.

 

[Soundawg]

No I don't have a line level problem, it's just that the AD2022 has SOOOO much gain available, and the output can only atenuate 3db (it's made for gain riding), so if one wants to use the different sounds available from an AD2022 including high gain settings - one must simply have an 'after the pre atenuator'.

This is the very reason your Great River has output control! To provide this functionality! I've used it... that's how it's made to work...

Low gain + High output = more clean
High gain + Low output = more color

Like I said before, all pres have these different flavours available, but without post pre atenuation (some like the GR provide it-some such as API and Avalon don't) with the gain set high - it's just too much level for the convertors. (on some not all)

I'm not sure how to be clearer, I fear you are missing out on all your API pres have to offer. I don't have experience with these pres - but a hundred posters can't all be wrong. :wink:

 

[BTLG]

That still sounds to me like something in your setup is calibrated incorrectly.
That's right, the GR has a transformer (a la Neve design) on the input AND on the output. The idea is that you can control signal going to the the output transformer and then adjust the output of that transformer accordingly. It's a completely different design than an API. (there's a reason that one ME1NV or a 1081 is larger than one API module..... there are more parts inside).

What works for you works for you, but I still think your line of thought misguided. The reason the AD2022 has such a drastic amount of gain available on input is most likely for mics that requre more gain (such as ribbons or dynamics). For a tube/condensor there's really no reason to have to turn the input up to 11 (that's why people use tubes/condensors).

 

[imdrecordings]

imdrecordings - you got one of these 8110s? Any problems with heat? I heard there may have been an issue?

No I don't, but wouldn't mind having one.. :wink:

I haven't heard of any heat problems surrounding the 8110



Matt,
I don't find much of a difference in sound between my 312s and a 512C..
I have 2-512C and 1-512B. 512C compared to the OSA? I agree with you there. 512C (to me) had a bit more AIR and solid round LOW.
The only difference is the phase switch and DI.

Either way.. my 312s sound BIG and Dry. FWIW

 

[BTLG]

I also found the 3124 to be more high gain with a pair of M149's, and the pad was more necessary on it.

The 512's in general, sound more open to me, but again my opinion is based on my memory of the 3124 and not on a shootout between the 2.

Back to the original topic of discussion, it seems that tube pre's in general have fallen out of favor. I rarely see them around the studio these days, our clients tend to prefer neve's over practically anything (which I'm still not sold on).

Then again.... when the room comes with 24 of them.... there wouldn't be much need for anything else then.

 

[imdrecordings]

hmmm... True.. Everyone does \"Talk\" about Neve stuff..

But the PRICE

I'd rather have a rack full of 610s.. than 1272s..

but that's just me..

I have yet to see a better pre for overheads (other than a Telefunken).

I have 1-1272... and really like it.. But if you made me choose at gun point..
610 all the way...

 

[Soundawg]

Tips from other API users on other forums...

Pad the output and crank up the gain and you'll be smiling even more.

get cha one of them ATTY's and crank the api up and DON'T pad it--
you may really love that--I know I do

Pad the output - The input pad steals some tone to my ears.

before I got Peter's atty, it would always make me sad when I had to engage the 3124 pad because I could never get that richness back in the sound....but after hooking the atty up, the clouds parted and the sun came back out!!!

Yes indeed I learned this trick rather late.

Big vote for the ATTY here and the 3124+.

Or if you have a compressor laying around you can get there + the color of the compressor.

I have two of them hooked up to one 3124+--four outputs directly into the ATTYS and then out of the attys with the corresponding output cables of the api channels which show at the patchbay.
I often use pairs of things so the single atten control works perfect for a pair of OH, KICKS, SNARES, TOMS, TROMBONE THROMBOSIS, dual rehymenization, ETC

Just recently discovered that sound by accident as well. Really nice!

312 -> api2500 is absolutely gorgeous, because things get extra special on the api2500 when you slam the input. so you get the love from slammin' the pre, which then slams the compressor, which then slams some 203 on the studer, which... well... slams.
every piece of gear has a tone you can push, which then saturates, which then distorts. i like that saturation point just before breakup, it can be a fine line but finding it at every stage x 4 or 5 or 6 stages adds up to a whole lot of harmonic love in the mix.

Sometimes abusing a piece of gear gives the sound you're after, in this case pushing it up in the red. The fact that it still sounds good when cranked means in my book that it's a well designed pre. From the designers point, it's not meant to be pushed, thus distorting. But the distortion is nice and many of us like it, so we (ab)use it that way. Then we need an atty on the back to get things back under control.

It is not really a problem, just a desire some of us have.
Yes, the ability to trim the output (to non-AD-blowing levels) in the unit...like a Great River MP, so you can drive the front-end harder (if desired).

Try padding the outputs and saturate the input....push those puppies into the red. when i first recorded with my 3124 i felt the same way......since i pad my outputs i can push the pre harder to give me that big sound that most people love.

the Shure A15AS \"Switchable Attenuator\" should work for you... it's switchable between 15, 20, & 25db of attenuation conveniently housed in a barrel connector.

I do wish the 3124 had an output pad. I end up using the input pad a lot. I have been wanting to get the Shure or ATTY pads for the output.

The output pads I mentioned really made a huge difference(Wiggy turn me on to this) .....My first drum & Bass recording I did with the 3124 sounded good but nothing like I hoped.........Then I started to push the input more with my output pads attached and it really gave my recording alot more meat.





Are these guys all having line level problems?



No offence dude! It just looks like there is a real need for 'post pre atenuation'.

 

[imdrecordings]

Soundawg,

So PAD the Line output and don't use my Pre's PAD...
hmmm.
I'll give it a try on my 312ss
.. and see what it sound like.
thanx
8)

 

[BTLG]

Sounddawg,

like I said, to each their own. I haven't really felt the need to do that, and I've used them with consoles and turned down the small fader (same effect as padding the output) and haven't really liked the results. I don't think the
sweet spot for a mic pre is '11', but maybe some people do. It's funny how 10 different people can work 10 different ways.

IMD - yeah, people do seem to love the neve's. we've got 24 of them in one of our rooms and people almost always use them in lieu of the SSL pres.