UA Support wasn't able to help me - can you? :) (super low signal w/ Unison)

[dastga]

Hi guys,
so this is actually a problem I've had for some time now. But since I'm mainly a guitar player using Hi-Z, I never got to the bottom of this (since UA couldn't help me and sending an old Apollo Solo Mk2 for repair is not an option hah.)

So this only applies to when using condenser microphones it seems. I've tried it on several mics include in Rode NT-1A, Aston mics, Neumann TLM-107.. And apparently, I am not alone, I've seen comments on Youtube with the same issue.

As you can see in the screenshot, the signal is so low after putting the 1073 in the Unison slot, I have to crank both the input and the output all the way to even hear myself! Yes, I can turn the "red knob" up and get a good signal, but that will also obviously color the sound.

So the plugin is maxed and then in Logic I have a plugin gain staging the signal to -18dB and that one had to increase the track with 15dB to get there.

This ONLY applies to Unison plugins (1073, Voxbox..) - without anything in Unison, I get a good signal, as expected, input around 1-2.
I have tried hardware reset (a few times) but it did not help. And yes, v48 is on, as you can see (God how I wish it was that simple... )

I also have this pink noise randomly fading in. But that I found out I can stop by just hitting the pad button on and off. Also not alone about this. But that's a topic for another day hah

Thanks in advance!

 

[Nyoak34]

You need to turn up the gain on the preamp itself - turn the red knob left.

 

[hotspot]

Yes, red knob first on maybe +45 , then adjust your output in the 1073 plugin.

 

[Nyoak34]

Yes...for the sake of your ears, your neighbors and your speakers.... turn the output down first and turn the red knob one click at a time...

 

[dastga]

Thanks for trying to help, guys! I appreciate it! I'm not a native speaker so maybe I'm not able to explain the issue well enough. Think of it like throwing a power soak from hell on the plugin.

I went over this with support. I will try to change it to +45 and show a screenshot of the signal.

But this is the preset for 70's vocals, and I can't hear myself using this - or any presets. So what is the point of coloration? Does this sound normal to any of you?
If I crank it up, it will get louder, but it will also (obviously) start distorting the sound.

But to give another better example, the Voxbox. It has different settings to get a different sounds, both an Input and a Gain. But for me, like someone else confirmed using the exact same mic tlm107, I have to put the "Gain" to max to even hear myself and then crank the Input up - and then the output too. Which would defeat the purpose.

Using any of these as an insert it works perfectly fine, very sensitive to changes. I can really hear "the sound"

 

[Nyoak34]

Thanks for trying to help, guys! I appreciate it! I'm not a native speaker so maybe I'm not able to explain the issue well enough. Think of it like throwing a power soak from hell on the plugin.

I went over this with support. I will try to change it to +45 and show a screenshot of the signal.

But this is the preset for 70's vocals, and I can't hear myself using this - or any presets. So what is the point of coloration? Does this sound normal to any of you?
If I crank it up, it will get louder, but it will also (obviously) start distorting the sound.

But to give another better example, the Voxbox. It has different settings to get a different sounds, both an Input and a Gain. But for me, like someone else confirmed using the exact same mic tlm107, I have to put the "Gain" to max to even hear myself and then crank the Input up - and then the output too. Which would defeat the purpose.

Using any of these as an insert it works perfectly fine, very sensitive to changes. I can really hear "the sound"

Respectfully, I think you're simply not understanding how it works. The input gain IS the red knob. You have the output gain cranked, not the input. Depending on the mic, you will need more or less gain. Turn the red knob.

 

[Geir]

Yes, I can turn the "red knob" up and get a good signal, but that will also obviously color the sound.

The red knob is the gain which amps up the receiver of the signal from the mic. That is purely hardware. This is the first in line of the signal entering in to the digital domaine A/D. You need to use it. Nothing wrong here at all. If you want uncolored signal, Don't use unison plugin. If you like what the change of impedance is doing to your mic, (again hardware) Use the plugin. The change in impedance when using unison can have a wanted/unwanted impact on the mic all depending on impedance.

 

[LesBrown]

-> -> -> "If you want uncolored signal, Don't use unison plugin." <- <- <-

 

[dastga]

The red knob is the gain which amps up the receiver of the signal from the mic. That is purely hardware. This is the first in line of the signal entering in to the digital domaine A/D.

Yes, I think it's simply the issue of the incoming signal being too low. It is like it's receiving the default 10db when in Unison. So probably a hardware issue of the impedance not working as it should. Using the Hi-Z with Unison works 100% as it should.

 

[Nyoak34]

The input signal is too low.... because you have not turned it up yet.

Based on your screenshot you have 60db of gain untapped.

 

[dastga]

The input signal is too low.... because you have not turned it up yet.

Based on your screenshot you have 60db of gain untapped.

So please, help me understand. If I only want a little coloration, say from the 70's vocal preset. How do a preserve the tiny amount, shown in the picture, without cranking it up (and as a result getting a lot of coloration to the point of distortion added to the sound)?

Sorry, but I don't think I am able to explain my situation. One would say "Yeah, you can compensate by using the pure *digital* output." But that is clearly not enough, as you can see in the photo.

Tbh, I think you are thinking of the problem as too easy "just crank it up", well sorry but "d'uh" I went over all this with Support and they could not help me and asked me to send it in.

 

[Nyoak34]

So please, help me understand. If I only want a little coloration, say from the 70's vocal preset. How do a preserve the tiny amount, shown in the picture, without cranking it up (and as a result getting a lot of coloration to the point of distortion added to the sound)?

Sorry, but I don't think I am able to explain my situation. One would say "Yeah, you can compensate by using the pure *digital* output." But that is clearly not enough, as you can see in the photo.

Tbh, I think you are thinking of the problem as too easy "just crank it up", well sorry but "d'uh" I went over all this with Support and they could not help me and asked me to send it in.

You posted a screen shot with the lowest gain setting for a condenser mic with your output CRANKED and suggested the incoming signal is too low.... if you have already turned up the gain and didn't like it, you probably need to try different microphones or you simply don't like the 1073 sound with your combination of mics. There is nothing here that suggests a hardware issue to me (so far). There's also nothing wrong with saying "I prefer a cleaner signal chain."

Perhaps you can:
1. Set the output back to 0
2. Set the console fader back to 0
3. Turn up the input gain until you have reasonable level going in
4. Post a sound example of what that sounds like

That would allow people to hear the coloration and see what exactly you're talking about.

 

[Geir]

Yes, I think it's simply the issue of the incoming signal being too low. It is like it's receiving the default 10db when in Unison. So probably a hardware issue of the impedance not working as it should. Using the Hi-Z with Unison works 100% as it should.

To me it looks like there is no hardware issue. You are simply not using the hardware as it is designed to work with the mic. If you use it as designed with this plugin and the impedance it sets the unison pre to work with, you clearly don't like the results.

Look at it more like you are driving a car. You dont move until you hit the gasspedal. The red knob is the gasspedal. Use it and it will start working. If you don't like the sound, try something else. Move the plugin to the insert slot and keep the unison clean. Maby this gives you the result you are seeking. Else just try different plugins.

There is also a Hi-Lo switch on the 1073 which change the impedance on the unison pre. Try it in low and back and forth with hi setting and listen to the difference in the way you're mic communicates with the unison pre.

 

[hotspot]

I'm not a native speaker so maybe I'm not able to explain the issue well enough

No need to apologize. What language do you speak natively? Maybe….

 

[dastga]

You posted a screen shot with the lowest gain setting for a condenser mic with your output CRANKED and suggested the incoming signal is too low.... if you have already turned up the gain and didn't like it, you probably need to try different microphones or you simply don't like the 1073 sound with your combination of mics. There is nothing here that suggests a hardware issue to me (so far). There's also nothing wrong with saying "I prefer a cleaner signal chain."

Perhaps you can:
1. Set the output back to 0
2. Set the console fader back to 0
3. Turn up the input gain until you have reasonable level going in
4. Post a sound example of what that sounds like

That would allow people to hear the coloration and see what exactly you're talking about.

Thanks, I will experiment some and see if I can post something! Appreciate the help!

But does it not strike you (or anyone in here) as slightly odd, that when using the exact same preset (70s vocals in the example) on a vocal recorded without Unison, adjusted to match -18dB using the VU plugin, to make sure I'm not boosting the signal in post - I get that tiny bit of coloration and it sounds great as intended. But if when in Unison I can't even get a signal strong enough to even get a reaction?

I remember watching an episode of the Office Hours where Drew said that on some mics you may have to use the digital output to get a louder signal.

But yea maybe I'm a bit of a dumdum here and you are all right. If so, I'm truly sorry for wasting everyone's time!

 

[dastga]

No need to apologize. What language do you speak natively? Maybe….

But sometimes when it comes to certain topics I find it hard to pinpoint what I'm trying to say

 

[dastga]

To me it looks like there is no hardware issue. You are simply not using the hardware as it is designed to work with the mic. If you use it as designed with this plugin and the impedance it sets the unison pre to work with, you clearly don't like the results.

Thanks, I will try and experiment some more again, for sure!

 

[hotspot]

But sometimes when it comes to certain topics I find it hard to pinpoint what I'm trying to say

Ah Swedish
Sorry, can’t really say any word in Swedish

 

[dastga]

Ah Swedish
Sorry, can’t really say any word in Swedish

What, not even "Skål!"? We do have some very similar words, Swedish being a Germanic language. In school we are given the option between German and French. The grammar of German terrified me so I went with French - for 3 months. I don't know any German either, but I can say the common phrases - and the unexpected and random "Ich bin ein zwitter"

 

[Nyoak34]

Thanks, I will experiment some and see if I can post something! Appreciate the help!

But does it not strike you (or anyone in here) as slightly odd, that when using the exact same preset (70s vocals in the example) on a vocal recorded without Unison, adjusted to match -18dB using the VU plugin, to make sure I'm not boosting the signal in post - I get that tiny bit of coloration and it sounds great as intended. But if when in Unison I can't even get a signal strong enough to even get a reaction?

I remember watching an episode of the Office Hours where Drew said that on some mics you may have to use the digital output to get a louder signal.

But yea maybe I'm a bit of a dumdum here and you are all right. If so, I'm truly sorry for wasting everyone's time!

I suppose the thing is - If you put it in the record slot, you have already used the internal appollo mic pre to boost the mic signal to line level. If you then have the 1073 in the record slot at MIC level, you're going to get a significant boost since you're effectively using a mic pre to boost a line level signal. If you use the line level side of the 1073, you'll probably have similar results in the record slot as you did in unison except the internal mic pre has already added some amount of gain.