UAD-1 in live sound situation. Thumbs up or down?

[lozion]

Ok, so here's the deal,
I want to be able to use the DSP of the UAD-1 in conjunction with my DIGI002R and mac powerbook G4 1.33 in live situations.
Can anyone share tips about using a UAD-1 on a live boards inserts in order to access plugins?
I'm dying to use my ProTools and a UAD-1's dsp to put a 1176 on a drum buss, a Pultec on the band or LA2A on vocals group, etc.
Like having a big rack of high end gear, minus the weight! 8)
But what about latency? And the buffers? Delay compensation?
You see, I would not actually record to track but just use aux inputs and process those with the plugs... So what about latency if you dont record?

Plus, so far the only way to use the UAD-1 live with my laptop would be to use it with a Magma expansion chassis, and FXpansion. Quite an serious investment so I want to be sure before doing this...
Anyone uses this setup in live situations?
Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks,

LoZion


PS: Just in case this sounds unclear, this is what I mean:
1-Patch 002R I/O's 1-8 to mixer's inserts send&returns,
2-Create template using 4 stereo aux inputs with I/O's set to 1-8,
3-Insert desired UAD stereo plugins on each inputs.

Of course this can be expanded into 8 mono inserts or even 16 if using additionnal adat lightpipe I/O.


Powerbook G4 1.33 768 Meg 15\"
DIGI002R PT 6.4
Vintage FXs and comps...

 

[giles117]

Well it sounds like you know the problems. Latency Latency Latency.

Pro-Tools TDM is the only system with low enuff latency to not be a problem (potential or real) with working live.

The uad will have a latency 2 times the size of the buffer setting. So if you set your buffer to 64 samples. UAd will introduce a latency of 128 samples. If that is an acceptable amount of latency for you then go forth and conquer, if not then you are where you are.

The BF plugins are pretty much the same as the UAd plugins save for the Reverbs. What specific tool would you be looking for that you cant get met with RTAS plugins on the market????

Of course the lower the settings the more taxing it will be on your CPU even if it is merely an Aux track with a plugin.

Personally unless i had a TDM system. I wouldnt waste the money or the time (in the protools world that is) The latency is just too much to do a live show with a set amount of Delay....Nah!!!!!

3rd edit: Relaize that Delay Compensation is something that is implemented with Tracked audio, not live audio. How do you compensate for something live?? Do you know they will play that riff start in 128 samples to play it before they play it. (sounds goofy but you get my point I am sure) so there is no Delay Compnesation available to you.) Stick to your RTAS plugins. Imagine a Neve EQ on Drums and bass. Now that is more appetizing. BTW Live Drums with 1176 or LA-2A rocks.

 

[lozion]

Could you wait 128 samples before doing your hat count-in?

Thank you Giles for clearing that one about compensation...
So far I'm still in the research process and am not yet a UAD user, although if UA would dare make a firewire version of their card, I'd buy it in a instant...(I know its been discussed elsewhere...)

Now, after making a few tests, I would say 128 samples buffer is acceptable and with 4 stereo or 8 mono plugins (my available i/o for now) my cpu is not overly taxed. In terms of tools, well I thought that the bf plugs were just not as good as the UAD's (specifically the dynamics ones). A subject that seems open to debate...

Indeed, a magma/uad/fxpansion set-up is probably too expensive to find myself having to deal with latency in the middle of the drum soundcheck!
So I think it' be best to find a good plug bundle, (BTW have you ever used Nomad Factory's bluetubes bundle? I tried the demo and think their not bad but I believe they wont work properly with low buffer setting...:evil:!) and maybe a Presonus firestation or alike to go to 16 I/O with lightpipe. Now, TC has the poco compact but will I find myself with the same latency problem? And I just dont want comps that are not up to UAD... or BF'S.

YA man, 1176 on drums... but not the bf76...

 

[giles117]

I've used both the BF and the UAD. The diff is UAD was modeled after the new units shipping and the BF after vintage units.

Except the Pultec and fairchild (of course)

 

[lozion]

error

 

[lozion]

hi,
here's a quote from the digi forum:

I'm running a dual 2.0 G5 002rack with two UAD cards, 6G RAM.

I swear by the UAD plugins, but with PTLE, you're not gonna be tracking with them. The latency with everything added up is about five or six minutes, give or take a couple seconds.

That being said, the UAD plugins are the last I would give up since they sound so durn good. I also use URS eq's, McDSP eq and comp, Sony comp, etc etc. Mostly I use the UAD plugs on the mixbuss (usually I'll have an 1176 or a Farichild, a Pultec and a Precision Limiter stacked up, depending what I'm doing. Plus the EMT 140 on a reverb bus.)

In the case of the UAD card, it's not about the extra processing power for PTLE users, although that's what got me looking into it in the first place. I think the UAD actually robs the system of overall processing power [meaning a net loss.] I'd actually prefer that they were RTAS without the PCI card. My system's been stable enough since I got the RAM count up.

Seriously, though. I bought it on the strength of a Fairchild processed vocal that was sent to me, but the Pultec, 76, LA2A, P-Limiter and EMT140 are all great.

Add to that the fact that the EMT was $150 and the Prec Limiter was $200. That's the least I've ever paid for some of the best plugins around.

Oh, I asked some trained ears about the diff between the BF versions and the UA versions. Most say it's the UA versions by a mile (sorry digi...we've all paid our $$$ though). The prices don't begin to compare, either. The only one I've been able to compare is the 1176. My opinion (and it's just that, an opinion!) is that the BF 1176-don't bother. The UA 1176-don't mix without it. [/quote

Any comments?

thanks,

 

[Royal T]

Re: Could you wait 128 samples before doing your hat count-in?

Now, TC has the poco compact but will I find myself with the same latency problem?

Yes. However TC have a no-latency mode for their plug-ins which unfortunately is very cpu-intensive, don't know if it would work or not.

You wouldn't get a 1176 on drums with the PoCo, though.

 

[lozion]

ya and what about the no latency mode on the Poco, does it work with more than one plug?
I know it loads your cpu but how much?
I would like to use this live so no ltency is important...
thanks,

 

[Royal T]

On a 2,8gHz PC you could probably run about 5 plug-ins I'd guess. This is with a PCI, don't know how the Firewire based units performs, ask Jim over at http://www.powercore.noheaven.com , he's a good man.

 

[pouncey]

i would never try to use these as live effects processors. seems like a really bad idea. since their main strengths are eq and compression, get suitable actual hardware for the live shows and do it right.

 

[lozion]

Have you read the whole thread?

Indeed, I would use those inserts for eq and mostly comps... not reverbs.
I saw a guy comin with his tour rack with distressors, 160's and more...
Me I can use my laptop and my digi002r and insert any 1176, la2a etc,...on any channel, up to five plugs at a time on a single channel! You get the idea... 8)
So, yeah I do think its a good idea and with research now almost over,
I will do some tests this week-end and let u know...
The main thing is to keep your buffer below 256 samples to avoid latency...

cheers,

 

[pouncey]

yes, i've read the whole thread (if that was addressed to me)

i run sound at large scale concerts and work on touring broadway shows. i see what people bring to live shows, and while some people bring DP or PT for track playback or recording two track live mixes, i think trying to run audio through plug ins is a terrible idea. and i would not do it. i would not be onstage with that setup, and i wouldn't put my professional reputation on it. i'd be nervous about stability, especially in different venues with different electrical conditions. and the latency issues are simply a dealbreaker.

i -would- use real distressors and related quality outboard. they sound incredible and never click or crash. i would use the uad1 in a studio on mixdown as i like the sound of the plugs. but the whole premise of using these plug ins live is something i think is a bad one. i simply cannot get behind the concept of live use of this technology. if you want to use these plug ins for studio mixdown, that's a great idea. they sound good. but as live effects processors, not at all.

 

[Royal T]

Lozion, go for it dude, artists have been using computers in concerts for ages, why can't the soundguy do it too? You need to make sure that the latency isn't going to f it up, but besides from that, why not?

If the UAD doesn't work, try out the zero-latency Sonalksis compressor if you haven't already done so, this compressor is as good as anything else IMO.

If I was doing sound on venues I would have used computers exclusively, but on important gigs I would have a back up system ready, just in case..

 

[pouncey]

Lozion, go for it dude, artists have been using computers in concerts for ages, why can't the soundguy do it too? You need to make sure that the latency isn't going to f it up, but besides from that, why not?

If the UAD doesn't work, try out the zero-latency Sonalksis compressor if you haven't already done so, this compressor is as good as anything else IMO.

If I was doing sound on venues I would have used computers exclusively, but on important gigs I would have a back up system ready, just in case..

well, first of all you'd better bring your own soundguy. or run this yourself from stage and just send the soundguy a send from your computer setup. i suppose it depends on the size venue you are playing, but patching this into the board would be an extra pita if at a club that had multiple bands playing. and i wouldn't want to have this inserted into channels with other bands playing earlier or later in the same evening. if you are talking bar sized venues, like 500 person or less, you may or may not get a sound guy comfortable with the intricacies of your little system. so bring your own guy. and if you are in venues of 1000 or more, you'll more certainly be travelling with your own soundguy, so that addresses that issue. if you are playing in places that are 4000 seaters or more (like where i A1), then you can afford real hardware and should get the real deal instead of messing around with this. past a supposed money savings over actual hardware, i don't see that advantage. especially since real gear won't crash or cause latency. but besides the unaviodable latency, venue power is a concern. and computer crashes are another. since the uad is a pci based solution, you'll still have to rack up a computer, monitor, audio interface, and one or two breakout snakes so it can be inserted into console channels (depending on the type of inserts the console have, so are trs and some aren't. and i wouldn't assume the sound guy would have enough extra insert cables for this setup, you would want to travel with what you needed.) therefore, this doesn't seem more convenient than having a mini rack with some compression and eq in it. and while the sonalksis is also good sounding and all, the same issues apply in regards to reliability as compared to outboard between the software and things like venue power, the fact that bringing racked up computer setups isn't necessarily easier than bringing the actual outboard, etc.

and even the cheerleaders for this bad idea suggest you will need a backup of some sorts. that gives a nod to the fact that this isn't as reliable as outboard gear. period. so what backup would you have? a total second computer system kept online and ready to switch into place right away during a gig? actual hardware outboard?

either way, i can't support what is a bad idea from the get go. but it's the internet, so you'll get people telling you it's a fan-fucking-tastic idea to do this instead of getting the more reliable actual outboard gear. like similar threads, this seems to revisit money savings over just getting good hardware to begin with. but the trade off is reliability. this is simply not as reliable as actual outboard gear, and that is an area i am less willing to compromise. also, i'm not too cheap to get the real thing. so for me it's a no brainer. you'll find people suggesting you do this, so if you are feeling lucky you can take your chances. but the thread is about input as to the strength of the idea of using a uad1 on channels at a live show, and i say nay. it's less reliable than real outboard, has some latency, possibly more difficult to run (from a soundguy perspective), and not easier to travel with or integrate into the soundsystem being used. so if it was my gig and my job was on the line, i wouldn't do this.

 

[pouncey]

http://marsh.prosoundweb.com/index.php/ ... 0cd03e56ea

there is a related thread in the marsh about using plug ins realtime.

 

[lozion]

Thanks to all of you guys for your input, quite enlighting .

The original idea was to assess the potential for use of a UAD-1 in live situations but indirectly it addresses the whole concept of plugin processing in realtime.

Before I conclude, let me answer to Pouncey's last post.
first, I AM that soundguy, been a professional live engineer for close to ten years with plenty tour experience. Moreover, I've made the crossover into studioland a couple years back and decided to combine both the live and studio worlds strenghts into \"making the show sound better\", hence this research.

Also, you have to understand that in this neck of the woods (Quebec, Canada) Distressors, Avalons, etc. rarely find themselves in tour racks so many engineers like myself like to carry around some processing. I travel with old delay & reverb units and the cabling so hauling gear is not an issue (buying 2000$ mono units is, though). And since I have a DIGI002R and now a powerbook, I thought it would be good to try the plugs during a show.

Now getting back to the UAD-1, I agree, the latency issue and the fact that the only way to use it with a laptop is with a Magma chassis/Fxpansion, as I stated before, make a strong case against live use. Until UA decides to make a firewire unit AND reduces latency, I will have to settle with native rtas plugs.

But, that is not saying the whole concept is wrong.
Low latency native plugs on a powerful laptop should be stable and do the trick. I use Protools live with a PAZ analyser inserted and condenser mike to have a read out of the room and it never crashed, so expanding on this, here's what I'll try tomorrow:

Insert 8 channels across mixers 8 groups;
Assign ALL inputs to appropriate groups (so all the mix is delayed equally, 128 samples);
Use 4 stereo plugs on those groups;
Open a beer and enjoy the show

I will let you know about the results.
Btw, I just bought Nomad Factory's Bluetubes bundle, will let you know about that one too... 8)

Cheers,

 

[giles117]

Lzion, you sound like me.

I was a FOH engineer and sometimes Monitor guy (Hate the position) for 15 years then I Corssed over and became a studio cat whilst still going out doing spot dates and the such.

I still average about 100 dates a year on the road and the rest is in the Studio.

I have found the studio experience has made me even FASTEr at my live thing. We all know what festival Dates mean... Line check and Go.. Sound Check is the overture or 1st song. LOL

Have fun in your endeavor. Although I must agree with Pouncey......

I do manage to get my hands on limiting amplifiers and good porcessing here in the states more often than not. But personally if all you have is 4 compressors I will rock the show

I am sure you know the feeling. LOL

Mix on and Mix Well.


hey Punce how is that dualie doing yah. I was over on the otherside asking about the dualie (ran into you on the macrumors forum)

My turn is almost here (darn if these artists would work more I'd have more gear. LOL)

 

[Royal T]

Yea, Pouncy, I agree that on huge venues like you're doing this probably wouldn't be such a good idea (unless you have a complete identical backup system), but I was under the impression that Lozion intended to try this out on more club size venue, and since he's the sound-guy himself, why not try it out.

I've done hundreds of gigs involving running live computers on stage, and there's almost never been any problems, so I don't see why this shouldn't work, at least not with native plug-ins.

 

[pouncey]

i am not averse to computer usage. i have designed a pretty extensive computer based show control system for one particular entertainer who need to lock in lights/sound/smoke/snow machines/etc. but i mostly controlled the patches set up on the light board, mixer (o1v in this case), and music playback. the redundant part was also having the cd of the show in the player and comprehensive notes for how to run the show manually should catastrophic failure hit. of course UPS's and the like are used in the system. so while the show relied on the computer, it could run without it manually. read the show book and call up the right presets.

however, i've seen that system lock up (early on, we got the bugs worked out eventually). also, i've seen pretty big digital mixers lock up on a show (innovason), and i've seen a few kinds of ugly power failures at even large venues. also, at smaller venues in my gigging days, i've had samplers go down momentarily just because the bartender used a blender. shitty power is a huge concern. and in those days, i was onstage waiting for thirty seconds loading in floppy disks staring at the audience like an asshole. sucked.

having said that, numerous big artists have come through my venue using things like DP or PT for backing tracks or live board stereo recordings. (bowie, avril lavigne, pixies, brooks & dunne, three dog night, etc.) anyhow, i am seeing computers in some capacity more and more, even with totally non electronic acts. and non lypsync acts. they do pull it off. at least they've all been on osx, so that helps. but they didn't have issues during the shows i was working on.

but having uad1 fx inserted on busses also does mean that if anything goes wrong, you could lose sound from the mains. real outboard won't crash and then stop passing signal. so, out of lots of experience, i am erring on the side of extreme caution. hey, it'll probably work at least 9 out of 10 times, but if the 10th time is a glitch of any sorts that makes the band look bad, it's bad for everyone. while i do typically see better quality outboard gear in the racks for the shows i work on, but even regular workhorse gear like dbx or presonus would work fine for the average live show. get a presonus acp88 and you are halfway there. any reasonable eq to round things out and now we are talking. perhaps one high quality channel strip for the LV. unless you are running through a kick ass line array (dV DOSC) or something, you won't hear that much difference from a typical club PA by using the dbx instead of lets say summit.

so, this thread isn't to make me seem like a party pooper. it's all about the amount of risk you are willing to take. and the amount of latency that is kosher for the band (limited on what the cpu is capable of dealing with). if a computer crash stops the audio from passing, then that would be a dealbreaker for me. just my own cya policy. other comments indicated that cost was a huge factor in this pursuit. i'd at least price out workhorse gear like the presonus or dbx to know how that would stack up against the custom racked computer system.

good luck either way.

 

[giles117]

Innovason SUCKS EGGS!!!!!!!!! To hard to mix in slow cumbersome and troublesome. Piece of GARBAGE!!!!!!!

Needs to be totally trashed and then the plugins sounds like CRAP!!!!!!!

Once again being a Concert Engineer I have to agree with Pouncy.

I could imagine how fast I would have been fired if i used a Digital Console when i was out with Usher and that thing locked up. Oops back to looking for a gig again. LOL

As much as I love digital technology you need backups... PERIOD.....

I have watched many a show go down because the MPC (back in those days) Locked up and all the BGV's were on the Akai S1000 Samplers. Oops No BG's for a few minutes hope those guys can really sing.

1680's and 2480's make more sense to me for the closest thing to error proofing but as shows get more complex you need rendundant systems.

2 or even 3 computers linked to an external clock so if one stops you flip a switch and life goes on (of course i wrote it simple but it is a tad more than that.) Even my wifes show has 28 tracks coming off the Computer Via DP4 with 3 keyboard players 2 Gtr, 1 bass and Drums of course. Maybe when we hire a percussionist we will lose some of those tracks. and Maybe when i can make 3 BGV's sound like12 channels of stacked vocals (eventide is good...but....) then I'll lose my 6 channels of BGV's Until then Back up after backup

OSX has made life easier though

Oh yeah before I sound like an extremist. We have so many tracks cuz it costs to much to hire an Orchestra wherever we go. (Gotta keep the promotors happy ) The orchetsration alone is 12 tracks. True 48 + show so I know the ills. and I would NEVER use a UAD-1 in the chain. Just too iffy and embarrasing if that thing gltiches. Plus the latency is annoying. I can hear 64 samples even on a cheap PA. And believe you me if you can hear it on a cheapy, a v-DOSC or even an ARCS will bring it totally to Bear.

SO from 2 Engineers you are hearing be careful.

But I will add.. Have fun. I am still the crazy risk taker, just do it on the small level 1st where the pople wont complain as much and have a system to switch all of this out of the chain in seconds.....