Using a shure ksm 137 as a kick out?

[Nickvegas]

I know this isn’t the ideal scenario, but is it possible to use a small diaphragm condenser mic for a kick out? I know if it was kick in it could possibly blow the diaphragm but how would it be on the outside? I’ve never tried a kick in and out because I don’t really have the right mic/enough mics for it but recently I’ve decided to try a mono overhead of an AKG 414 instead of the stereo overhead of the ksm137s freeing up a spot. My current kick in isn’t the best (sennheiser 421) but it gets the job done. This worth a try or should I not bother?

 

[UA_User]

Try it and see if you like it. Nothing wrong with an sdc.

For sure be mindful of putting a sensitive capsule where lots of air is being pushed. Easy to account for outside.

‘kick out’ can mean completely different things with different goals. Where are you placing the mic? Are you after sub boom, click , or what?

 

[Nickvegas]

Try it and see if you like it. Nothing wrong with an sdc.

For sure be mindful of putting a sensitive capsule where lots of air is being pushed. Easy to account for outside.

‘kick out’ can mean completely different things with different goals. Where are you placing the mic? Are you after sub boom, click , or what?

Cool!

never done it so I’m new to placement but I see a lot of engineers/producers I like doing it! I’ve gathered kick out could be for a little more sub or body while the kick in is a little more defined with a slight click from the beater, at least this is what I’m thinking of using it for!

 

[UA_User]

Cool!

never done it so I’m new to placement but I see a lot of engineers/producers I like doing it! I’ve gathered kick out could be for a little more sub or body while the kick in is a little more defined with a slight click from the beater, at least this is what I’m thinking of using it for!

Kick out as being for sub/body is only true when placing it at the back head with a large diaphragm (a sub kick [speaker used as mic] is nice here).

By the time your sdc is far enough away to get subs, it’s more of a front drum kit mic (which is a nice thing too sometimes). The wavelength of the beef takes a few feet to develop. Even with a sub kick, going out an inch or two further until the beef shows up is often needed.

kick out otherwise tends to add click, more so as you move it around away from the head a bit (millimeters can sound like miles of difference) Sdc has no trouble here.

I’d be wary of sticking your sdc right in front of a front head. Might be fine, might blow the mic up. Better not to find out. There is gear that will redirect the air pressure, look into that if you want.

 

[Nickvegas]

Kick out as being for sub/body is only true when placing it at the back head with a large diaphragm (a sub kick [speaker used as mic] is nice here).

By the time your sdc is far enough away to get subs, it’s more of a front drum kit mic (which is a nice thing too sometimes)

kick out otherwise tends to add click, more so as you move it around away from the head a bit (millimeters can sound like miles of difference) Sdc has no trouble here.

I’d be wary of sticking your sdc right in front of a front head. Might be fine, might blow the mic up. Better not to find out. There is gear that will redirect the air pressure, look into that if you want.

This is good to know! All this being said maybe it’s best not to experiment with a sdc because it may very well just turn into a room mic haha

 

[UA_User]

This is good to know! All this being said maybe it’s best not to experiment with a sdc because it may very well just turn into a room mic haha

Yeah but a floor mic is a nice beefy sound. So worth trying. In Some rooms this sounds killer, other rooms not so much.

You can also lowpass cymbals out and simulate a sub mic setup, though I’d grab the nearest 57 or 58 or whatever and get it close to the back head for that.

 

[Nickvegas]

Yeah but a floor mic is a nice beefy sound.

You can also lowpass cymbals out and simulate a sub mic setup, though I’d grab the nearest 57 or 58 or whatever and get it close to the back head for that.

You can use a 57 on the back head for a sub? I’m playing a bit of a shuffle game at the moment. I have stereo pair 57s, stereo 421s, stereo 137s, and one AKG 414. My old setup was stereo OVH with the sdc, one 421 on kick one on floor tom, then a 57 on snare and a 57 in between the racks. I’ve been wanting to try different setups but don’t know the best allocation

 

[UA_User]

You can use a 57 on the back head for a sub? I’m playing a bit of a shuffle game at the moment. I have stereo pair 57s, stereo 421s, stereo 137s, and one AKG 414. My old setup was stereo OVH with the sdc, one 421 on kick one on floor tom, then a 57 on snare and a 57 in between the racks. I’ve been wanting to try different setups but don’t know the best allocation

the mighty 57 can do anything! in an average sort of way lol.

Based on your setup, for me the 57 is a poor small Tom mic requiring a ton of eq, and even worse split between 2 toms. Depending on the song I’d maybe switch the 421 to the small toms, as just about any mic can do a decent job on floor tom (more forgiving than rack Tom’s)

even so, we’re just talking different sounds. Maybe a given song works better with the Barky 57 on small Tom’s. No right or wrong here.

ps 414 is a real nice choice for mono kit mic. I’d be thinking in those terms rather than ‘mono overhead’ per se, while you’re experimenting. You can get a lot out of just that in the right spot.

 

[Nickvegas]

the mighty 57 can do anything! in an average sort of way lol.

Based on your setup, for me the 57 is a poor small Tom mic requiring a ton of eq, and even worse split between 2 toms. Depending on the song I’d maybe switch the 421 to the small toms, as just about any mic can do a decent job on floor tom (more forgiving than rack Tom’s)

even so, we’re just talking different sounds. Maybe a given song works better with the Barky 57 on small Tom’s. No right or wrong here.

ps 414 is a real nice choice for mono kit mic. I’d be thinking in those terms rather than ‘mono overhead’ per se, while you’re experimenting. You can get a lot out of just that in the right spot.

Thanks for your detailed answer!! You’ve given me a lot to think about! Two more questions, if I thought about it more as a mono kit, would you still close mic the snare and kick for a little extra punch? (Leaving the toms and cymbals as the mono picture) or would you truly just use one? And how far above the kit would you go for a mono kit? And position over the snare maybe?

 

[UA_User]

Oh yeah, if you go back to stereo overheads, try the 414 as a fok (front of kit) mic too, another thing it’s good at.

 

[UA_User]

Thanks for your detailed answer!! You’ve given me a lot to think about! Two more questions, if I thought about it more as a mono kit, would you still close mic the snare and kick for a little extra punch? (Leaving the toms and cymbals as the mono picture) or would you truly just use one? And how far above the kit would you go for a mono kit? And position over the snare maybe?

For sure record the close mics too, unless it’s a retro vibe simulation, or like a quiet thing behind an acoustic guitar and singer.


really it’s more the close mics are for balance safety net, in that case. Most drummers have thick loud cymbals and hit them hard, so a mono kit mic alone is a fantasy.

watch you phase in your test mixes if you experiment with combining a main kit mic with spot mics. Almost certainly going to need gates on the Tom’s etc too in that case.

 

[UA_User]

Forgot to answer: I don’t put a mono kit mic above, or high. Goal is to minimize cymbals.

some people do it that way but it’s very dependent on room, drum, drummer, etc. most of the time it’s just a cymbal mic if it’s put up there.

really you can either do a over the shoulder kit mic (I’m not huge on using a condenser for that, though some condensers are special), or mic from audience perspective. Those seem most effective to me for mono whole kit mixing. That’s just me though, so ymmv

 

[Nickvegas]

Forgot to answer: I don’t put a mono kit mic above, or high. Goal is to minimize cymbals.

some people do it that way but it’s very dependent on room, drum, drummer, etc. most of the time it’s just a cymbal mic if it’s put up there.

Oh I see so it would be front of the kit?

 

[UA_User]

Oh I see so it would be front of the kit?

I edited that post with more info