Volume vs Loudness Anyone?

[mivey4]

While I somewhat understand the terms loudness and volume from a universally accepted definition that anyone can search for online, I'll have to admit for me these terms in a more broader sense seem to blend in such a way that I find them almost abstract in nominal shades of grey.

For example, I can slap a compressor and/or limiter as the last component on my chain of plugins, have a loudness meter after that on the mix bus and push audio through to get a reading of -13 LUFS.

Now if I want to push this signal to get another +1dB I can do 1 of 2 things (I'm sure there are also other alternatives so not suggesting these are the ONLY alternatives)
1. I can push the compressor/limiter to get that extra dB on my meter
2. I could drop a gain control after the compressor

Now maybe it's just the overall general usage of the terminology that makes the whole concept confusing at times.
Take for instance the "Gain" control that I use a lot. I've been led to believe that a Gain control aside from being useful in gain staging; is a way to control "Loudness"

But you can see from the screenshot below, a very reputable Audio company states that it's controlling the "Volume"



IDK, but maybe it's things like this that create a conundrum for me and make me raise this seemingly obvious question..... that at times does not seem so obviously simple. So is there a very simple concise way to define when one is dealing with Volume vs Loudness and know when which term is appropriate to use?

Anyone???

 

[UniversalAudio]

While I somewhat understand the terms loudness and volume from a universally accepted definition that anyone can search for online, I'll have to admit for me these terms in a more broader sense seem to blend in such a way that I find them almost abstract in nominal shades of grey.

For example, I can slap a compressor and/or limiter as the last component on my chain of plugins, have a loudness meter after that on the mix bus and push audio through to get a reading of -13 LUFS.

Now if I want to push this signal to get another +1dB I can do 1 of 2 things (I'm sure there are also other alternatives so not suggesting these are the ONLY alternatives)
1. I can push the compressor/limiter to get that extra dB on my meter
2. I could drop a gain control after the compressor

Now maybe it's just the overall general usage of the terminology that makes the whole concept confusing at times.
Take for instance the "Gain" control that I use a lot. I've been led to believe that a Gain control aside from being useful in gain staging; is a way to control "Loudness"

But you can see from the screenshot below, a very reputable Audio company states that it's controlling the "Volume"

View attachment 17194

IDK, but maybe it's things like this that create a conundrum for me and make me raise this seemingly obvious question..... that at times does not seem so obviously simple. So is there a very simple concise way to define when one is dealing with Volume vs Loudness and know when which term is appropriate to use?

Anyone???

Loudness always involves a human perception. Volume is the physics/math of it.

 

[mivey4]

Loudness always involves a human perception. Volume is the physics/math of it.

So in terms of what I asked, I suppose that IS the most simplest concise way to define it. But although loudness involves human perception, does it not also require some degree of physics and certainly some math as well? Which would kind of blur the lines a bit, no?

 

[UniversalAudio]

So in terms of what I asked, I suppose that IS the most simplest concise way to define it. But although loudness involves human perception, does it not also require some degree of physics and certainly some math as well? Which would kind of blur the lines a bit, no?

Indeed, physics are involved, but the main difference is the fact that loudness takes into account humans, and how they uniquely perceive volume which has a frequency component as well. Whereas volume is strictly a measurement or absolute type value.

 

[mivey4]

Ok, so that nails it for me as far as the simplest definition in that Loudness calculations incorporate a definitive frequency response as it must compensate for the human frequency range whereas Volume does not.

So that being said, would it be safe and correct to say that gain controls are designed for loudness and not volume? Or the other way around?

Quoted from 1 source: Gain controls the amplitude of the audio, not the loudness

From another source: After a signal has been processed and it makes its way out of a sound system, the volume is how loud it is. In essence, volume is how loud we perceive something to be

And with very little effort searching the differences from seemingly credible sources (e.g. not self professed YT guru's or those having looked it up themselves and now consider themselves experts on the topic).... I can easily find many more conflicting definitions for gain controls vs volume controls. Actually, it can be a bit frustrating having a wealth of information and trying to sift through in search of the real answer.

I believe your definition/explanation is the best viable answer that makes the most sense to me in terms of Volume vs Loudness.

Your answer in combination with another that I've accepted....."So the gain controls how loud something is before it goes through any processing. It’s the volume that's the result of what is output."

What's you take? Gain controls are designed for loudness and not volume? Or the other way around?

 

[hotspot]

I think a lot of the misunderstandings are caused by confusing and shortening terms.
Gain controls are designed for gain what basically refers to electrical signal strength but often refers to volume gain.

In practical use, I would not rely on the labeling being exact. You are better off paying attention to the context.

 

[UniversalAudio]

Ok, so that nails it for me as far as the simplest definition in that Loudness calculations incorporate a definitive frequency response as it must compensate for the human frequency range whereas Volume does not.

So that being said, would it be safe and correct to say that gain controls are designed for loudness and not volume? Or the other way around?

Quoted from 1 source: Gain controls the amplitude of the audio, not the loudness

From another source: After a signal has been processed and it makes its way out of a sound system, the volume is how loud it is. In essence, volume is how loud we perceive something to be

And with very little effort searching the differences from seemingly credible sources (e.g. not self professed YT guru's or those having looked it up themselves and now consider themselves experts on the topic).... I can easily find many more conflicting definitions for gain controls vs volume controls. Actually, it can be a bit frustrating having a wealth of information and trying to sift through in search of the real answer.

I believe your definition/explanation is the best viable answer that makes the most sense to me in terms of Volume vs Loudness.

Your answer in combination with another that I've accepted....."So the gain controls how loud something is before it goes through any processing. It’s the volume that's the result of what is output."

What's you take? Gain controls are designed for loudness and not volume? Or the other way around?

Yeah, it's all pretty wild out there.

In my world, Gain is a word almost exclusively associated with mic pres. Or with conpressors in the form of "make up gain"... or with Clips with "clip gain". So it is all very loosey-goosy!

Volume is used for output controls like "control room volume knob"

 

[mivey4]

Perfect! Thanks guys. It's been a considerable while since I'd been frequently active posting in this forum but it's always good to know I can come here to get sound information and advice. Appreciate you.