Why Do I Need AD/DA Converter?

[Emerson]

Hi Everyone,

I'm upgrading my studio and want to add some analog hardware to compliment my UAD plugins. I've read about studios that use AD/DA converters and was wondering if they are necessary or at least contribute to the quality of sound. Thanks.

 

[Akis]

You mean external AD/DA converters, other than the ones your audio interface has? What audio interface do you currently have?

 

[Emerson]

Thanks

Thanks for your reply. I'm using a Presonus Firepod as a interface is that helps.

 

[brian]

If you plan on using analog outboard for inserts, etc. during mixing then you certainly want the best AD/DA you can afford. Does the Firepod have any wordclock input? Getting a decent clock generator is a good idea especially if you will be using any other digital outboard gear.

If you are only going to use hardware gear only on the way in to your PC then you really just need great AD converters. Having good DAs in this case would be nice but will only effect the quality of your monitoring, not the actual material being recorded.

 

[dennyhellbach]

IMO the AD-DA converter is probably one the most important things in your recording chain. Buy a RME ADI-2. It is relativly cheap and it will do wonders for your sound.

Denny

 

[Emerson]

Why Do I Need An AD/DA Converter?

Thanks for everyone's help and guidance. Here's my setup:

My outboard gear consists of: a Mac G5, Neumann U87 Mic, Universal Audio LA-610. I almost exclusivly record vocals and acoustic and/or electric guitars (including bass) on my outboard gear, everything else is internal. So, with that in mind, do you recommend a converter and, if so, where does it go in a chain like mine? Thanks

 

[Arys Chien]

If you mix in the box, then you need at least one very good AD. (Of course it's also important to have at lease one very good DA to monitor what you're doing accurately....)

I don't know how much budget you have, but RME is a good starting point. ADI-2, or better Fireface 800. If you can afford it I'd suggest that you get a Lynx AES/EBU sound card and connect it to a Lavry Blue AD+DA. You can make a record with this setup.

 

[imdrecordings]

Well unfortunately the FirePOd is very limited.... It's made to hook up to multiple FirePods in tandem. Not so cool... no clocking ability at all.

If I were you, Id check into selling the FirePOd and getting Presonus's new FireStudio. Much more options/upgrades like: better converters and a WordClock that can stand up to the Apogee stuff, better Pres and a ton of Flexibility. You can even get a remote control for it with Talk Back and Monitor Switching. This thing IMO one upped my FF800..... I hate admitting that. but it's true. And half the price of the FF800 and way under the Ensemble..

Only it doesn't have FW800... ha!

I hope RME comes out with a controller for my FF800..... but it will probably never happen.

-S-

 

[Jeraz]

I've used the firepod. The firepod has A-K 5385s ADs and decent chips on the outgoing too, but it's CLOCK and other supporting circuitry are sufficient, but not admirable. Going to even an current generation FF800 will give you an incredible difference in stereo field and fidelity, (the current generation FF800 shares converter/clock specs with the top RME products, and uses the mastering grade A-K 4396 chips on all the outputs, including the headphone jack).

I little bit OT, but relavent...I recently picked up an API A2D. This is two renowned API 312 preamps, PLUS AD converters, with digital level control, that are on par with the top outboards, for the price of what you'd pay for great outboards.

Now, that is only half the package, but together with my RME FF800, I have some incredible flexibility. I can drive the front end (the pres) while throttling back the digital out so it doesn't clip in the DAW; I can open the digital full, and run the the pres at normal levels; I can run the 2:1 tranny taps in both the above scenarios or not; I can plug another pre into the insert points in back (think of your 610) and use the API ADs for another pre; I can run the APIs analog instead of digital through the RME (a different sound, altogether).

You get the point...If I were in your shoes, I'd think \"High quality options and flexibility in connections\".

 

[Jeraz]

Well unfortunately the FirePOd is very limited.... It's made to hook up to multiple FirePods in tandem. Not so cool... no clocking ability at all.

If I were you, Id check into selling the FirePOd and getting Presonus's new FireStudio. Much more options/upgrades like: better converters and a WordClock that can stand up to the Apogee stuff, better Pres and a ton of Flexibility. You can even get a remote control for it with Talk Back and Monitor Switching. This thing IMO one upped my FF800..... I hate admitting that. but it's true. And half the price of the FF800 and way under the Ensemble..

Only it doesn't have FW800... ha!

I hope RME comes out with a controller for my FF800..... but it will probably never happen.

-S-

Two things come to mind when I read your post:

1. The Firestudio has better pres than the FF800 (but not as good as, say Onyx, IMHO) and a competitive clock, but the converters are not as good going out. Also, the FF800's steady clock will take another MASTER clock coming in, like a shaky ADAT or another converter, and steady it, which the Firestudio, to my knowledge, won't.[/*:m:2xib8epe]
2. You can buy the Mackie Big Knob, brand new, for like, $250, and you have your "remote control" for the FF800. I use one, and it is fantastic. True, you have to run more cables, but you also have more flexibility, like being able to run a turntable (phono inputs), and other outboard analog gear, trim it, choose between -10 and +4 for each in and out, and go in and out of your FF800 in mindboggling combinations. I haven't had to touch RME's Total Mix software since I bought one. Just setup headphone mixes and main mixes and all that and the only thing I have to do now is open up a template in the DAW and everything from there, including what monitors or headphones I want to listen to is controlled from the Big Knob.[/*:m:2xib8epe]

 

[imdrecordings]

Two things come to mind when I read your post:

1. The Firestudio has better pres than the FF800 (but not as good as, say Onyx, IMHO) and a competitive clock, but the converters are not as good going out. Also, the FF800's steady clock will take another MASTER clock coming in, like a shaky ADAT or another converter, and steady it, which the Firestudio, to my knowledge, won't.[/*:m:75dd5qd5]
2. You can buy the Mackie Big Knob, brand new, for like, $250, and you have your "remote control" for the FF800. I use one, and it is fantastic. PresonusTrue, you have to run more cables, but you also have more flexibility, like being able to run a turntable (phono inputs), and other outboard analog gear, trim it, choose between -10 and +4 for each in and out, and go in and out of your FF800 in mindboggling combinations. I haven't had to touch RME's Total Mix software since I bought one. Just setup headphone mixes and main mixes and all that and the only thing I have to do now is open up a template in the DAW and everything from there, including what monitors or headphones I want to listen to is controlled from the Big Knob.

1. [/*:m:75dd5qd5]

Comparing the FF800 w/a Mackie BigKnob & the FireStudio by presonus?? hmm..
I still think the Presonus FireStudio, has our lovely FF800s beat.
The controller for the FS will allow you to solo Surround sound Mixes as well as switch through 3 other sets of stereo monitors. It also has ZERO extra cables, Stop-Play-Record-FF-RW functions, uses an ethernet cable that can stretch up to 300ft and becasue it's not passing through circuitry it wont color or degrade your monitoring signal.

Presonus also has a simalar technology as STeady Clock, called JetPLL. It gets Jitter results close or better than the FF800... if not identical . It's digital mixer is identical to TotalMix. It also has 4 more pres (when you need them). It does S/MUX with simalar inputs to the FF800.

Bang for the buck, the FF800 loses. The only reason it cost so much, is because it's made in Europe and not in ASia.. Presonus has the bulk of their components made in Asia, but does the bulk of the manufacturing/QC here in the US.

DA?? Very very VERY Close!!!

RME ff800-$1499.95=299.99 Mackie Big Knob+ cables $100.00= to much!!!!
Presonus FireStudio w/ controler-$899.98

Mackie Big Knob still costs more than the Presonus controller and you still have to buy GOOD cabling and you still have to no control over the HOST software.

I am a FF800 user.

All that said..
The FF800 has been the champion for quite some time. I just think it has finally met it's match. The FF800 has had a good run. :wink:

 

[Jeraz]

Ooh, don't be so quick to count out your FF800! Or for that matter, the Mackie.

The ff800 has a 2-yr warranty; the Firestudio, 1-yr

Inputs/Outputs? RMEs TRS are balanced/unbalanced...Firestudio...balanced only. This is imporant when you WANT to run an unblanced line to a mixer or to outboard gear like an RNC1773 (Really Nice Compressor) that can't take a blanced line...you can just internal loop it and record a compressed track at the same time as dry one.

As to the closeness of the converters, how close can they be? LOL...the Firestudios are 96K, and the RME uses the same 192K converters used in the five-figure protools HD systems. That's just the spec-wise obvious difference, but I've heard the converters in the firestudio, and they are nice, and they may sound close to some, but they are not RME. There is, I think, a +9dB difference in the DA dynamic range alone!

As for the clock, the RME will steady another clock that is the MASTER, and the Firestudio will not. Case in point where this might prove important...the API A2D had GREAT converters, but I wasn't sure about the clock. I couldn't use the FF800 as the master, because the A2D only slaves to superclock. SO, when I use the A2Ds converters, I MUST use it as the master. No worries! The RMEs jitter supression will work on a master clock...not so with the Presonus.

I like Presonus stuff—I've owned and used it. It's built well, and the Firestudio is a competitive box at the right price. But IMHO, it is a DIFFERENT box than an RME. Perfect for a band doing demos, but not good enough, IMHO, to put a $2,000 pre through and get the most out the other end. The RME, IMHO, is.

As for the Mackie...if it colors the sound at all, it is not to get in the way of me telling the difference between a Pultec, a Helios, and two different Neves...LOL...great quality build...great op-amps used throughout.

From SoundOnSound's, 2005 review (when it was closer to $400):

Mackie have been very careful to make the signal path clean and quiet so that your monitoring won't be compromised. The spec shows the frequency response to be essentially flat from 10Hz to 50kHz, and only 3db down at 100kHz, while EIN is 119dBu maximum and the dynamic range 112dB minimum on all paths except the phono ins (which have a 93dB minimum dynamic range). The input trims have a ±10dB range, while the output trims go from -14dB to 0dB. Certainly the unit seemed as quiet and as clean as a Mackie mixer.

FYI, the dynamic range is greater than that of the firestudios output converters, and the EIN only slightly less than those of the Firestudio preamps.

That said, the Mackie let's you choose from:

THREE monitoring systems, not including a FOURTH set of studio monitors (with separate gain and on/off), each individually set -10 or +4 (my stereo is on -10, my KRKs on +4), and a FIFTH output for headphone amp

THREE 2-track inputs NOT INCLUDING a FOURTH headphone mix input, and a FIFTH phono input with ground.

Two, powerful, clean headphone amplifiers with separate headphone outs.

Talkback to two-tracks (e.g. for dubbing voice guides) and/or phones (switchable). Mono, Mute, Dim switches, and well, a big FECKING KNOB.

That's a lot for $250-295.

I use the Tranzport for remote DAW control...great...no wires...massive options.

Generally, you do get what you pay for...

 

[imdrecordings]

Ooh, don't be so quick to count your FF800, or the Mackie out.

The ff800 has a 2-yr warranty; the Firestudio, 1-yr

True, but I'm not worried about either company not helping me beyond that. They are both great companies. In fact 1 of the FF800's FW800 slots popped off and fell inside, the first time I hooked a cable up to it. Still have yet to send it in....:?

Inputs/Outputs? RMEs TRS are balanced/unbalanced...Firestudio...balanced only. This is imporant when you WANT to run an unblanced line to a mixer or outboard gear like an RNC1773 (Really Nice Compressor) that can't take a blanced lin...you can internal loop it and record a compressed track at the same time as dry one.

No biggy anymore.

As to the closeness of the converters, how close can they be? LOL...the Firestudios are 96K, and the RME uses the same 192K converters used in the five-figure protools HD systems.

I've heard that one before... Have you ever heard the Lavry converters that only go to 96k...? enough said.
And this \"RME uses the same 192K converters used in the five-figure protools HD systems
\" doesn't really mean anything... Sense I'm not a big fan of Digi.. in fact I hope your wrong. I'm not a fan. I thought RME designed/used their own Converters. The EMU1820M has the old \" Same as HD converters\" and I hated that machine..... That's probably due to my short comings.though.

As for the clock, the RME will steady another clock that is the MASTER, and the Firestudio will not. Case in point where this might prove important...the API A2D had GREAT converters, but I wasn't sure about the clock. I couldn't use the FF800 as the master, because the A2D only slaves to superclock. SO, when I use the A2Ds converters, I MUST use it as the master. No worries! The RMEs jitter supression will work on a master clock...not so with the Presonus.

JetPLL does the same thing as SteadyClock.

But IMHO, it is DIFFERENT box than an RME. Perfect for a band doing demos, but not good enough, IMHO, to put a $2,000 pre through and get the most out the other end. The RME, IMHO, is.

That makes very little sense.. if you got a great pre... USE IT! I've heard great recordings on 16bit adats..

As for the Mackie...if it colors the sound at all, it is not enough for me not to tell the difference between a Pultec, a Helios, and two different Neves...LOL...great quality build...great op-amps used throughout.

I'm sorry, but I'm ju not sold on MAckie anymore. I've done the Onyx thing. In fact the ONyx board I had and sold was noisy and distorted. Come to find out that all Mackies are made in China and the factory making them decided to put a lower quality IC in the boards. Bummer! Mackie didn't find out untill 1 year after the boards were made and sold.

Talkback to two-tracks (e.g. for dubbing voice guides) and/or phones (switchable). Mono, Mute, Dim switches, and well, a big FECKING KNOB.
That's a lot for $250-295.
I use the Tranzport for remote DAW control...great...no wires...massive options.

Mark...
The controller does all of this for 199. I'm not saying I don't like my FF800... But I am saying after 4 years, the RME's rein has come to and end. The Presonus's price, sound and controller says it all. You can always add better conversion. And with the money you save you could get a high-end 2 channel ad or da. Just my 2 pennies. :wink: YMMV

p.s.- It's good to see some one new to this forum with such strong opinions.

 

[Jeraz]

Thanks...been here before, just was away for a while, 'cause I couldn't enmoy past v3.9 UAD Software on my old MOBO, and now it's sweet.

Oh...and the DAC chip is only part of the converter of course, but the point is you have to start with capability and dynamic range to build the reat of the circuit. I didn't think the 1820M sounded bad...that's just preference though.

So are you going to eBay the ff800? :wink:

 

[imdrecordings]

Now that we have offcially high-jacked this thread...

So are you going to eBay the ff800? :wink:

I've thought about it.
I want to go back to a PCI card, like th HDSP 9652 and a Rosetta or Aurora. Not that it would be that much better, but latency would be much lower. I hear RME is releasing a PCIe card and that would be great. I hope!


But then I'll think... Laptop?

and BAM... not selling it.

I could just get the Rosetta and the optional FW hookup. Who knows? :roll:
BU I am feeling like I want to ditch Firewire.
The FF800 gives me so much... hmmm.. eh! Plus Totalmix...
But honestly, I like the sound of the Apogee gear in comparrison.
I got rid of a lot of sweet gear to pay the bills.. One being a Rosetta.. bummer.
For me, it seems that when dealing with high track counts recorded through 1 type of converter, I liked the Apogee a little better. The RME be it clean and clear, it can also be abrasive/have a harsh transient responce and dark at times. Iknow I know... call me a pussy. The Apogee gear just seems smoother and little more focused, to me. I just like the way they sound. That's not a sales pitch... :wink:

 

[Jeraz]

Hmmm....don't eBay just yet...

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6857

Read posts from Rosenberry and ADK...some on page two...