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Why Not Take The RME Digiface Approach?

electro77

Venerated Member
RME Digiface and Multiface soundcards give you one main unit that can connect to the computer by several methods.

If the new UAD was a cascadable 19\" rackmount unit that let you connect to an optional cardbus interface, an optional PCI interface, an optional PCI express interface, or just use the standard firewire b port and run it like a Powercore firewire rack unit.


If UA took this smart route, the new UAD2 could be compatible with whatever type of system you have, depending on which add on card you buy.


As far as the existing UAD-1 is concerned, all the existing plugs should just be rewritten for the new hardware and renamed for the UAD2 like UAD2LA2A and UAD2EX-1, just for the sake of avoid the problems and headaches that will arise from having to write drivers that try to integrate the new UAD-2 and the PCI based UAD-1 we have now. Now UAD2LA2A would be sonically and functionally identical to the existing UAD LA2A, but named different just to make it easier on the coders and give us a 1X latency solution instead of the 2X latency rule we now have.

*An option that vst hosts should have in the near future is allowing us to replace 1 (missing) vst plugin with another plugin upon load. For example. If you load an old project on and Nuendo finds that all of the UAD-1 plugs you used are missing (because you changed hardware) Nuendo should ask \"Do you want to replace the missing plugin UAD LA2A with another plugin? When you select yes and choose the new plugin named UAD2LA2A your project is perfectly restored, even though your system doesn't have the UAD-1 card. This is an option that vst hosts will have to add so it is not the responsiblility of UA, but you can easily see how it would make a neat solution to moving from the UAD-1 to the UAD-2 and having new names and plugin IDs for the plugs we are using now.



UAD2 should be designed around providing massive DSP power (for standard work at 192Khz) and minimizing latency issues on plugins like 13ms Upsampling delay for UAD2PultecPro and UAD2PrecisionLimiter delay. Latency should be the biggest factor in the design of the UAD2. If 64bit dualcore SMP systems allow us to run our systems at 1ms latency at 192Khz, the UAD2 should be up to the task and not bog us down with additional latency concerns. A chainer for the UAD2 is a must. This chainer should be designed right from scratch, so we can load fxp and fxb preset files into the various plugins loaded in the chainer plugin. The UAD2 chainer should also let us click and drag to rearrange loaded plugins.
 

petersueco

Active Member
I have just suggested in another thread that the expansion rack could be connected to the new UAD2 card. New owners just buy the new card and we, the old owners, can buy the new card and connect our old cards to it.

http://www.chrismilne.com/uadforums/viewtopic.php?t=4638&sid=82428fd514ec040995930035d1f17b09

I don't care about the latency. If the new PCs are going to be capable to run at 1 ms @192Khz, then the UAD system would only double that. And I can live with 2 ms latency !

Peter Holmquist
 

Agent Cooper

Established Member
electro,
that's what I've been thinking all the time, too.
They could perhaps even use RME's adapter cards and protocol and add their own external hardware. Could be a good thing for both companies.
I'd prefer that solution to any firewire / USB / LAN solution by far since the RME stuff just works, never had the slightest problem with my Digiface or ADI 8 converter.
Cheers, Cooper
 

electro77

Venerated Member
I started to think that a brand new design that doesn't run into complications by trying to run code across the 2 UADs (UAD-1 and UAD-2) was the best way to go. UAD2 should be designed from scratch to minimize latency, and minimize if not eliminate all those complicated problems like host CPU overhead, tempo sync and sidechaining within the VST 3.0 Spec while maintaing 1X latency. There shouldn't be any compatibility attempts between UAD-1 hardware and UAD-2 hardware, instead they should just be 2 completely seperate products that run the same plugins.


The best solution for migrating the UAD-1 to new systems is for UA to make their own (inexpensive) proprietary PCI chassis that plugs into the same adapter cards that will connect the UAD-2 rackmount unit to your system. That should keep all old UAD owners who want to use the UAD-1 on the latest systems satisfied and make it easier on the UA developers too. UAD-2 needs to be streamlined for minimum host CPU overhead and 1X latency with all the bells and whistles of native plugins under the VST 3.0 Spec (Sidechaining, tempo Sync and 64bit and 128bit I/O).
 

danilop

Member
I like the idea of decently priced UA Magma style expansion chasis which could load, let's say, 4-8 UAD-1 and/or 4-8 future UAD-2(which should be in PCIe form) , with flexibility to choose which interface to use(PCI, PCIe, FW or LAN). 8)

I think that compatibility between two is very important! Both cards should coexist without problems and should be seen by plug-ins/driver/user as single, large DSP farm!

And, while we wait for shiny new UAD-2, maybe it's time to introduce more than default four UAD-1 unified license (remember, Neve 1073 plug-in is around the corner :wink: )?

P.S.
I don't see latency as a problem, too.
 

electro77

Venerated Member
danilop said:
I think that compatibility between two is very important! Both cards should coexist without problems and should be seen by plug-ins/driver/user as single, large DSP farm!
I want a UAD2 built from scratch with a reorderable chainer and 1X latency with NO native CPU overhead. Also, every plug should be able to run at 192Khz. The old UAD-1 will just bog down performance and add a ton of extra development time. UA should avoid going down that road.
 

rydan

Active Member
Yes, that is a great system. This is the same as MOTU uses with their stuff, meaning that if you invest in expensive audio hardware like say the 24i/o, you san move it from PCI to PCIe just by upgrading the PCI card.
 

Eric Dahlberg

Purveyor of musical dreams fullfilled.
electro77 said:
UAD2 should be designed from scratch to minimize latency, and minimize if not eliminate all those complicated problems like host CPU overhead, tempo sync and sidechaining within the VST 3.0 Spec while maintaing 1X latency.
I don't think these issues are the fault of the current card. We have latency because the extra buffer allows the card to process more, just look at Tony's "real-time" rig. The Powercore can be run in a "zero" latency mode but your plug-in count goes way down, & part of the reason the Creamware system requires 6 DSP's to get decent plug-in count is because the processing is practically real-time.

Similarly, I really don't see any reason why the current card shouldn't be able to do sidechaining & plug-in chaining. Could plug-in chaining possibly require more on-board memory than what we now have?
 

electro77

Venerated Member
UAD-1e should not be considered \"the new UAD\" UA should release a proprietary PCIe chassis that can hold 8 UAD-1e cards + 4 UAD-1 cards for total of 12 cards.


UAD-2 should be a 100% seperate product line from the UAD-1 and UAD-1e and it should use the cascadable RME digiface approach. UAD2 should have identical plugins to UAD-1 but with new names. For example UAD21176N, UAD2LA2A, UAD2PultecPro, UAD2Nigel.
 
electro77 said:
UAD-1e should not be considered "the new UAD" UA should release a proprietary PCIe chassis that can hold 8 UAD-1e cards + 4 UAD-1 cards for total of 12 cards.


UAD-2 should be a 100% seperate product line from the UAD-1 and UAD-1e and it should use the cascadable RME digiface approach. UAD2 should have identical plugins to UAD-1 but with new names. For example UAD21176N, UAD2LA2A, UAD2PultecPro, UAD2Nigel.
I tend to agree with you. If UAD want to go external the RME way of doing that is very smooth. They could offer a PCMCIA and a PCI/PCIe version. There could be two packages, a "pro" version that would have a large Magma type chasis for multiple cards. And a "on the go" version that would be just one card in a nice little box. In total you would have the choice of Three types of connector that would take care of laptop, home studio, and Pro studio setups.
Just think, a portable and a in house sized dsp solution. All the knowhow is there to do this already. The systems that RME are using are ROCK SOLID and the magma chasis is nothing new. If UAD where to take this path I cant see why it would fail. UAD+RME! I would be sold in a second. No dobt others would be as well.
 

electro77

Venerated Member
Mike Goodwin said:
electro77 said:
UAD-1e should not be considered "the new UAD" UA should release a proprietary PCIe chassis that can hold 8 UAD-1e cards + 4 UAD-1 cards for total of 12 cards.


UAD-2 should be a 100% seperate product line from the UAD-1 and UAD-1e and it should use the cascadable RME digiface approach. UAD2 should have identical plugins to UAD-1 but with new names. For example UAD21176N, UAD2LA2A, UAD2PultecPro, UAD2Nigel.
I tend to agree with you. If UAD want to go external the RME way of doing that is very smooth. They could offer a PCMCIA and a PCI/PCIe version. There could be two packages, a "pro" version that would have a large Magma type chasis for multiple cards. And a "on the go" version that would be just one card in a nice little box. In total you would have the choice of Three types of connector that would take care of laptop, home studio, and Pro studio setups.
That is exactly what UA needs to avoid. There should only be 1 cascadable version of the UAD-2 unit fitted with firewire b standard. The only difference should be in the seperate interface. There should be an Optional PCMCIA Interface, an Optional 32bit PCI 2.3 Interface, and an Optional PCIe Interface, but only 1 UAD-2.
 

electro77

Venerated Member
well they can make a physically small version like Powercore compact if enough people demand it, but I dont think only having a 19\" rackmount unit is a big deal. Just slap a handle on it and its portable. Once they start making compact versions there is going to have to be performance reductions.
 
Mike Goodwin said:
so your saying that you do not think there ought to be a version that is portable?
PCMCIA? :)

Or can't you life a rack mount unit?

:p
 

electro77

Venerated Member
Eric Dahlberg said:
electro77 said:
UAD2 should be designed from scratch to minimize latency, and minimize if not eliminate all those complicated problems like host CPU overhead, tempo sync and sidechaining within the VST 3.0 Spec while maintaing 1X latency.
I don't think these issues are the fault of the current card. We have latency because the extra buffer allows the card to process more, just look at Tony's "real-time" rig. The Powercore can be run in a "zero" latency mode but your plug-in count goes way down, & part of the reason the Creamware system requires 6 DSP's to get decent plug-in count is because the processing is practically real-time.

Similarly, I really don't see any reason why the current card shouldn't be able to do sidechaining & plug-in chaining. Could plug-in chaining possibly require more on-board memory than what we now have?
Something is wrong because there are already 3 plugs that can't run at 192Khz which I plan to do everything at in the near future.

Plate 140
Roland RE-201Space Echo
Precision Multiband

I still dont understand why they cant do 192Khz, does anyone know?
 

cowudders

Member
Eric Dahlberg said:
I don't think these issues are the fault of the current card. We have latency because the extra buffer allows the card to process more, just look at Tony's "real-time" rig. The Powercore can be run in a "zero" latency mode but your plug-in count goes way down, & part of the reason the Creamware system requires 6 DSP's to get decent plug-in count is because the processing is practically real-time.

Similarly, I really don't see any reason why the current card shouldn't be able to do sidechaining & plug-in chaining. Could plug-in chaining possibly require more on-board memory than what we now have?
As I understand those DSP systems (take a Motorola, Sharc, don't really know about the Impact) _are_ realtime. Maybe some algorithms use a 'look-ahead' buffer, but as the System6000 from TC is essentially a Powercore II, there seems to be no difference.

The problem is the streaming/synching from to PCI/software and this takes much power of the _host_ in Poco's realtime mode.

Concerning sidechaining: TC'S 'Filtroid' offers sidechaining, so there's no reason why this should not be possible with a DSP card.

cheers,
bernd
 

GerhardS

Member
Why dont they choose a scalable approach similar like Soundscape did it.
You can start with a 1 DSP solution (Mixtreme) and upgrade to a 5 DSP solution (Mixpander5) up to a 9 DSP solution (Mixpander9)?
All this in an external housing with a choice of Firewire / USB2.0 or even an PCI-E interface card ?
I use Soundscape AND UAD-1. And this combination rocks as a effect engine for a digital mixer.
The Soundscape concept is very clever (in my eyes) and rock stable.
br
GerhardS
 
Captain Caveman said:
[quote="Mike Goodwin":31hdz8ek]so your saying that you do not think there ought to be a version that is portable?
PCMCIA? :)

Or can't you life a rack mount unit?

:p[/quote:31hdz8ek]

Sure I could but I would not want to. It is not what I would tend to call portable. I am thinking for producing on the go with uad as opposed to using other plugs when working outside the studio only to have to replace them all with uad plugs when I get back to my desktop. I dont need to be working at 96k + when im sitting in a park or a hotel room.
 

electro77

Venerated Member
Akis said:
There's not enough DSP for these plugs @ 192KHz.
Its not DSP, its something else.
 
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