Recorded Latency when using Apollo 16 with Pro Tools

S

skinicod

Member
Hey All,

I noticed the other day that performance that had been recorded was a bit out of time - even though it clearly hadn't been at the time of performance. Looking into it a little bit further, it seems that a latency is being introduced into the recording chain somewhere. The delay is correlated with buffer size in Pro Tools, however I have only experienced this issue whilst using UAD Apollo 16.

In order to prove the point, I have set up a session, where I send a click both out of the Apollo and out of an internal bus. I then set up 2 tracks, "internal" and "external" and recorded the bus on the internal and the ran the click through my desk and back into pro tools and recorded this on the external track. I then looked to see how aligned the 2 click tracks were. The amount of delay shown on the external track almost exactly matches the amount of buffer size set in Pro Tools.

Clearly I have set something up wrong. I notice that Console has a concept of virtual tracks - is this something I should be utilising? If so how. Any thoughts/ideas welcome.

For information I am using:

Pro Tools Ultimate 2018 v12
Mac Running 10.12.6
Latest version of Console (though I can't find a version number on this)
2 x Apollo 16 connected via Thunderbolt 2
Trident 88 (i.e. non digital desk - so that I can monitor latency free).

Any help very much appreciated.
 
S

skinicod

Member
Matt Hepworth said:
Do you possibly have any plugins on the record enabled track in PT?
Click to expand...
No, I am not using any plugins on the record channel in either pro tools or the apollo, and for my experiment with the click there were no plugins anywhere (bar the click plugin obviously!)
 
S

skinicod

Member
I checked this thread before, but it looks to be a different issue. In that thread there the audio was out of sync, sometimes ahead sometimes behind. In my scenario it is always behind, and by an amount that varies with the change in buffer size.
 
DanButsu

DanButsu

Administrator
Forum Admin
Moderator
Trash your Pro Tools prefs and redo the test :)
 
Matt Hepworth

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
skinicod said:
Already did that, and actually tried on 2 seperate pro tools set ups on 2 computers.
Click to expand...
You're not alone, but we're in a tiny minority. Mine is inconsistent, but is affected by buffer and always late unless I set the buffer to 32 with IDC on medium. In that instance it's a few samples early.

Dig in to that other thread. About half is this same scenario and the other is something else. This does seem to only affect PT for me.
 
S

skinicod

Member
Matt Hepworth said:
You're not alone, but we're in a tiny minority. Mine is inconsistent, but is affected by buffer and always late unless I set the buffer to 32 with IDC on medium. In that instance it's a few samples early.

Dig in to that other thread. About half is this same scenario and the other is something else. This does seem to only affect PT for me.
Click to expand...
View attachment Latency Test.zip

Will do some more digging into that thread in that case. I thought it would be helpful to upload my latency test session. I have recorded a bar of click at various buffer levels. The delay is 100% correlated to the buffer size - it is always buffer samples minus 6 samples - e.g. if buffer is set to 64, then the delay will be 58.
 
S

skinicod

Member
Matt Hepworth said:
You're not alone, but we're in a tiny minority. Mine is inconsistent, but is affected by buffer and always late unless I set the buffer to 32 with IDC on medium. In that instance it's a few samples early.

Dig in to that other thread. About half is this same scenario and the other is something else. This does seem to only affect PT for me.
Click to expand...
Hey Matt, I'm not sure if you have seen my replies on the other thread - but I may have an explanation for why your audio sync issues are inconstant. I suspect that you have changed the IDC in Apollo whilst Pro Tools is still open. This has the effect of changing the amount that the audio is out of sync by, until such time as you change the pro tools buffer again. This does not help or solve the bigger issues that Pro Tools is screwing up the syncing of recorded audio however.

I have raised a ticket with Avid, and asked for a copy of 12.8.3 to try and rectify the issue. Interestingly the issue still exists within this version 12. If I however go all the way back the version 11, then the issue completely disappears. I have gone back to Avid to ask for an early version of 12 to see if the issue has always existed.

I am still not sure if this is an Avid or a UAD bug, as I can't believe that no-one would have clocked it as a problem until now. So it may be something to do with a recent version UAD software as much as anything else. Irrespective this is a clear bug one way or the other, and I hope that UAD and Avid can figure a way to fix it soon!!!
 
Matt Hepworth

Matt Hepworth

Master of the UADiverse
Forum Admin
Moderator
I have all kinds of earlier versions. Ultimate 2018.12 had the same issue.

How much earlier do you need? 12.6 and later definitely all have it for me.
 
DanButsu

DanButsu

Administrator
Forum Admin
Moderator
Through the school I have loads of earlier versions of PT available. Let me know what you need! For the record, I have never experienced this issue on PT12.4/5 w/10.8.5 and now all is good as well on PT2018.12 w/Mojave. It’s happened twice in the past, but those where punches into heavy mix sessions.

Let me know if you need earlier PT versions. Cheers. Dan
 
S

skinicod

Member
Matt Hepworth said:
I have all kinds of earlier versions. Ultimate 2018.12 had the same issue.

How much earlier do you need? 12.6 and later definitely all have it for me.
Click to expand...
Avid sent me v12.0.0 - This also works fine. So my test show that somewhere between 12.0.0 and and 12.8.3 it definitely goes wrong (though from what you're saying possibly 12.6). Have you got a 12.5 or earlier installer? I seem to remember that was quite a big release.
 
S

skinicod

Member
Hey Everyone, Here is the official response from Avid:


The issue is because of the driver for UAD. UAD is a third-party company for Avid which is not cooperating with us regarding driver communication between the unit and Pro Tools. Apollo 16 Thunderbolt 2 is not supported with Pro Tools 2018.12. UAD driver is not providing the correct delay value to Pro Tools to let it compensate in time.
The question of why it was working with specific older versions of Pro Tools is a question for the UAD what they have changed in the driver.
I have made a reproduction of your issue in our Audio Lab using Pro Tools 2018.12 Ultimate with HD Native and HD Omni with the click track using your specific workflow. Delay compensation is working fine as there is no difference while using buffer size 32,64,128 or 1024. The only delay which I have measured is a system ( CPU ) delay and AD/DA of HD Omni which altogether results at the value of 57 samples in the 44,1 kHz session which triggers in total 1,21 milliseconds of delay no matter of the buffer size set.



Anyone from UAD care to comment?
 
O

Oli P

Active Member
skinicod said:
Hey Everyone, Here is the official response from Avid:


The issue is because of the driver for UAD. UAD is a third-party company for Avid which is not cooperating with us regarding driver communication between the unit and Pro Tools. Apollo 16 Thunderbolt 2 is not supported with Pro Tools 2018.12.
Click to expand...
I'm on Apollo 8 ...and the issue is happening just as much there.
 
Kcatthedog

Kcatthedog

Hall of Fame Member
So, if you guys are going to test this what’s the control factor? Are you starting with a UA/PT combo of software that worked with no delay and then what ?

Also, as UA has had 2 or 3 versions of interfaces, as well, are you going to control for those? Just curious, if we really know the smoking gun?

I find it hard to believe that Avid would ever admit the problem was its code, even if it was ?
 
S

skinicod

Member
Kcatthedog said:
So, if you guys are going to test this what’s the control factor? Are you starting with a UA/PT combo of software that worked with no delay and then what ?

Also, as UA has had 2 or 3 versions of interfaces, as well, are you going to control for those? Just curious, if we really know the smoking gun?

I find it hard to believe that Avid would ever admit the problem was its code, even if it was ?
Click to expand...
As mentioned previously I know that UAD apollo 16 works fine with PT12.0.0. I know that at least from 12.4 it stops working correctly. This is true of both pro tools and pro tools ultimate running on Mac OS sierra and above on an imac, macbook pro and cheesegrater style. I do not have earlier OS's, or other versions of PT to test on, and indeed I would rather get on with making music than loading up yet another iteration!

Interestingly (I use that term loosley) UAD have written to me showing that different Apollo drivers do seem to adjust how much the sync is out by, but they caviated this by saying that one of those drivers was not officially compatible with the OS they were using (Mojave).

I'm actually blown away that more people are not shouting about this, given that it is a such an obvious and reproducible problem.
 
UniversalAudio

UniversalAudio

Official UA Representative
skinicod said:
Hey Everyone, Here is the official response from Avid:


The issue is because of the driver for UAD. UAD is a third-party company for Avid which is not cooperating with us regarding driver communication between the unit and Pro Tools. Apollo 16 Thunderbolt 2 is not supported with Pro Tools 2018.12. UAD driver is not providing the correct delay value to Pro Tools to let it compensate in time.
The question of why it was working with specific older versions of Pro Tools is a question for the UAD what they have changed in the driver.
I have made a reproduction of your issue in our Audio Lab using Pro Tools 2018.12 Ultimate with HD Native and HD Omni with the click track using your specific workflow. Delay compensation is working fine as there is no difference while using buffer size 32,64,128 or 1024. The only delay which I have measured is a system ( CPU ) delay and AD/DA of HD Omni which altogether results at the value of 57 samples in the 44,1 kHz session which triggers in total 1,21 milliseconds of delay no matter of the buffer size set.



Anyone from UAD care to comment?
Click to expand...
Hi all.

A few things.

First, the issue occurs on Pro Tools and 3rd party (core audio) hardware. They "repro'ed" on an HD hardware rig, so not a proper test. Also, considering the issue doesn't occur with Apollos and Cubase or Reaper etc, that calls into question that it's our driver.

Second, not sure what they mean about A16s not being supported on 2018.12. Avid doesn't have a 3rd party approval system. That's odd.

All this said, we are looking into this issue internally and I'll reply with an official statement once we've conducted our in house testing.

Thanks for your patience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
UAD Bundle Month
Top